SBR Formula One - Foals arriving!! **Dun or Dunskin Filly**

Star foaled just after 4:00am and she had a beautiful dun or dunskin filly....she is pretty light so I hope dunskin. All is well. More info can be seen at www.sbrformulaone.com. More pictures to come in the near future! Thanks for looking.

Awww, she's adorable. Can't wait to see what she grows up like. Congrats.

Loves those fillys. Gosh, you all are getting so much color this year. Congrats. Love her markings.

More color, geesh this year is great! Congrats on that Beautiful girl!

FILLIES RULE...

I know many people use the term "dunskin". Can you tell me what registry takes that as a color? I know AQHA and ABRA don't. If it has a dorsal it's a Dun. If it doesn't it's a buckskin. People also use the term Dunalino.. I have not found anyone who takes that as a color either..

I dont know if this will help you any. I heard AQHA will be adding new colors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_gene

That is very informative. However, those terms are used to describe. There are not something you can put on your paper work as a "color"..

Dixie's Sire is buckskin as far as I am concerned. But, he has a dorsal so he is a dun. If you read the rule for color on ABRA they describe a dun as many different colors..

Dixie has no dorsal so she is a buckskin.. What I call a sooty buckskin. But, that is not a reconized color either.. What it does tell you is what shade she is.. When people use these terms I know what color the horse is and that it has a dorsal.. It is descriptive. But, is not a real color as far as the registry goes.

Good example would be Tommy. He is sorrel. When I describe his color I call him a copper sorrel. But, no matter what I say he is still a sorrel.

AQHA took in all the crop outs and claimed they are now AQHA horses.. Everyone was so excited and registered them with that association. Then, they said, well, too much white so you cannot show them.. UNDESIRABLE... We will kick you out of the ring if you have too much white on ya.. They even papered dead horses.. I say, If you got the money honey we got the time... Anything to get a buck out of ya.. Not all people show or breed their horses.. So doesn't matter to them. Well all that pissed off APHA and they said we will not register your crop outs.. Good Lord. That is why they even became and association.. This cost people a whole lotta money.

It would be nice if the color became a color that you can register your horse as. But, it's not at this time and I just like to stick to facts and what it is, is what it is.. I do not use those terms.. I use the terms that are reconized by the associations that register our horses.. I do not agree with them. But, I like to refer to what is real. BLAH BLAH BLAH..

Hi.
Many people and organizations use the color "dunskin" do describe a horse that has both a cream gene as well as a dun gene. Such as many of the genetics testing organizations... www.horsetesting.com for example, if you go to color calculator you can select "Dunskin" which is what they use to describe my stallion, so you select that and then the mare's color and you can see what you would get out of the two. (He is also homoz black and agouti so you have to select that if you use this tool).

I understand that many associations like AQHA, ABRA, APHA ect... do not use "dunskin" as a color, still doesn't mean it does not exist genetically...much like cremello and perlino...they did not recognize them either but now do. Someday they will have to open the door and accept the other colors that do in fact exist and are coming out more and more, (like dunskin, dunalino, perlino dun, and MANY MANY others....it's just a slow process with change as well as the study of color genetics being still relatively very new.




On a different note...check out the new pictures and video I took this weekend of the filly on the website (link on original post). I am pretty sure she is just dun, but I will genetic color test her anyway to be sure.

Boy, she thinks she is HOT STUFF!

She sure does. She puts on a show everytime I turn them out!

Looking forward to seeing the rest of them babies

I am sure at some point they will change the colors they accept. The word "Dun" by it's self really only tells you the horse has a dorsal.. Nothing else.. There are so many different shades they come in. Some of the other terms used like cob webbing do not make sense to me either.

As far as I am concerned a buckskin with a dorsal is still a buckskin to me. I don't care if they have a dorsal or not. I have had some chestnuts and sorrel with a dorsal. They were not allowed to be duns..

I was told the filly I had has the cob webbing by my ABRA friends. To me it just looks like she has a darker area that runs over her forehead.. I would expect to maybe see some pattern there?

The filly is a cutie.. Hard to tell where she will end up as far as color. I think it was Mare who had a foal that had no dark points. The lil booger looked like it could very well be a paly.. Then, it started to change color and started getting the darker points. Turned out do be a buckskin.

I know the filly I had changed color so many times I about went nuts. The dorsal she had just seem to spread out over her back and she ended up Sooty buckskin.. Not a color accepted either. The fact that they change so much is why ABRA only gives temp papers until they are a yearling and then they might just leave them that way.. No matter how you look at things.. Color is way more fun the brown and red for sure..

Well if a buckskin horse has dun factor than it has a dun gene as well as a cream gene. But if it's buckskin and does not have dun factor then it more than likely does not have a dun gene (especially if neither parent had one to give) and then it's just a buckskin. That is the difference, there is either a gene present or not. So no buckskin and dun are NOT the same thing in general, a horse is what it possesses genetically. And yes a dun can come in all different “shades” of brown/tan. But a buckskin dun (or as some call it Dunskin) is in fact a hose that is genetically a buckskin that also has a dun gene, and yes you can call it just a dun, that is acceptable, however the registry needs to note that the horse possesses a cream gene and is in fact buckskin and dun together. Otherwise say you breed a chestnut mare and get a buckskin out of the two (if you breed), when you send in the registration papers for it they will contact you to tell you it is not genetically possible to get a buckskin out of a dun and a chestnut, which is true if the horse is just a dun, but if it is a dun with a cream gene, making it a buckskin dun than it is…however since they don’t have “buckskin dun” or dunskin as a color this is the rigmarole you go through. I know because it happened to me and I have had to deal with it and getting all my horses color tested to verify for registry purposes so that they are declared their proper genetic colors.

Some people confuse a dorsal stripe with counter shading. They are different but can look similar. And in order to get a buckskin foal one parent must have a cream gene to pass and the same for dun, a parent has to have a dun gene to pass.

Cob webbing, shoulder baring, leg baring, dorsal stripe, etc are expressions of a dun factor gene. Some duns have all of them easily visible and others do not.

I know it can get confusing but I have studied genetics by taking classes taught by a Ph.D. in Equine Reproductive Physiology so that has helped my understand it much more. There are some great books out there too you can check out.


I hope that more detailed explanation helps.

Bluejay wrote:

I am sure at some point they will change the colors they accept. The word "Dun" by it's self really only tells you the horse has a dorsal.. Nothing else.. There are so many different shades they come in. Some of the other terms used like cob webbing do not make sense to me either.

As far as I am concerned a buckskin with a dorsal is still a buckskin to me. I don't care if they have a dorsal or not. I have had some chestnuts and sorrel with a dorsal. They were not allowed to be duns..

I was told the filly I had has the cob webbing by my ABRA friends. To me it just looks like she has a darker area that runs over her forehead.. I would expect to maybe see some pattern there?

Actually, the word dun means the horse has dun factors, 9 of them in all, and a dorsal is ONE of the dun factors. They are also called primitive markings. There are "descriptive" shades under dun, but the horse is still a dun. The term "buckskin" not only describes the genetic color of the horse, but it's also a broad term used by IBHA and ABRA. These buckskin registeries register the genetic color buckskins, duns, red duns, and grullas. A horse with a prominent dorsal is a DUN...period, and not a buckskin. Many bays, chestnuts and sorrels may be line-back, but that does not make them a dun.

Jennifer

GotaDunQH wrote:

Bluejay wrote:

I am sure at some point they will change the colors they accept. The word "Dun" by it's self really only tells you the horse has a dorsal.. Nothing else.. There are so many different shades they come in. Some of the other terms used like cob webbing do not make sense to me either.

As far as I am concerned a buckskin with a dorsal is still a buckskin to me. I don't care if they have a dorsal or not. I have had some chestnuts and sorrel with a dorsal. They were not allowed to be duns..

I was told the filly I had has the cob webbing by my ABRA friends. To me it just looks like she has a darker area that runs over her forehead.. I would expect to maybe see some pattern there?

Actually, the word dun means the horse has dun factors, 9 of them in all, and a dorsal is ONE of the dun factors. They are also called primitive markings. There are "descriptive" shades under dun, but the horse is still a dun. The term "buckskin" not only describes the genetic color of the horse, but it's also a broad term used by IBHA and ABRA. These buckskin registeries register the genetic color buckskins, duns, red duns, and grullas. A horse with a prominent dorsal is a DUN...period, and not a buckskin. Many bays, chestnuts and sorrels may be line-back, but that does not make them a dun.

Jennifer

More points I did not bring up...you explain them better than I anyway. Thanks.

So basically what you are saying is that a Dunskin carries a cream gene and a Dun does not.

Mare wrote:

So basically what you are saying is that a Dunskin carries a cream gene and a Dun does not.

LOL LOL LOL....you are even better at suming things up. Thanks. Yap-er-doo!

Yup, Mare, that was an excellent summation.
Duns and buckskins may look very similar, but genetically they are two totally different things. AQHA needs to recognize that horses like SCR's stallion carry both genes. Otherwise there can be a lot of mix ups when it comes to registering foals. Just because some registries do not yet recognize certain colors, does not mean they don't genetically exist.

Where with a Dunalino they would carry the dun gene along with a cream. And a Pali just carries a cream. My gosh I feel like I just had a light bulb moment! Now Bluejay is it easier to understand? I have a bay mare that has a dorsel but her mom (grey) throws a dorsel on almost every foal. So if I bred my Bay mare to a Dunskin or Dun would that give me a better chance of getting a Dunskin or Dun since she has counter shading?

Dunalino is a when a horse carries both dun and palomino. Dunskin is dun and buckskin. The difference is that buckskin is a black based color and palomino is red based.
I don't think counter shading is any indicator of possible color production. But I don't think there has been much research in that area.

Thank you for your help. Someday I'm gonna understand all of this

NO WAY MARE.. Things will change on ya by the time you get it figured out..

Bluejay wrote:

NO WAY MARE.. Things will change on ya by the time you get it figured out..

Only thing that coudl change would be info on counter shading, as they have been much more interested on getting genetic tests out for new diseases like HERDA, GBED and the like. As well as roan, grey and dun.

Bay Horse + Creme = Buckskin
Bay Horse + Creme + Dun = Dunskin
Red Horse + Creme = Palomino
Red Horse + Creme + Dun = Dunalino
Black Horse + Creme = Smokey Black
Black Horse + Creme + Dun = Smokey Grullo

Here is a smokey grullo tobiano stallion I know, he is genetically capable of producing buckskins, palomino's and smokey black's on mares without creme gene's, as well as producing duns, red duns, and grullo/grulla's on mares without the dun modifier.

http://www.widneypaints.com/stallions.html

here is one of his dunskin fillies (genetically tested )


here is my dunskin filly (sold as a weaner, now coming 4)

Without genetic testing I can say she is Ee/Aa/Dd/CcrCr Because dad is tested ee/aa/CcrCr (Pally), and mom is not light enough to be dunskin herself, and has thrown a chestnut colt. Meaning mom is Ee/Aa/Dd/CrCr

I love the color. When I had mine tested I couldnt even understand it. When I got it back I had to go on a forum and ask what it ment. Someday I will get it, I was horrible at science.

Merikle, have you thought about writing a book called " Color for Dummies" And a plain Dun is what?