anyone have some possible foal colors they want to know?

Thanks Bluejay I didn't think all those sites where wrong... on that cross I really look forward to seeing what she produces with Tommy too no matter what it will be beautiful Tommy produces well...

Merikle Waters wrote:

CantJog wrote:

Oh!!!! To throw you for a loop.....

Sire: Sorrel + Dam: Bay = Foal: ?????

sorrel = red based ( I call all sorrels/chestnuts red's when doing this, because they are not a different color, but just different shades.), so since this horse is red based, he could carry agouti, but it is hidden because he is red based, and agouti only effects black bases.

dam- (black based horse, with agouti), we dont know if she is hetero black, or homo black, or hetero agouti, or homo agouti, so I will calculate both.


Foal color outcomes
-mare homo for both black and agouti

black, bay

-Mare homo for just black, and hetero for agouti
Black, bay (more than likely black unless partner carries agouti), if partner carries agouti, the foal could be homo agouti

Mare hetero for agouti and black

Black, bay, red

ok now, this whole topic was so I could help others learn about color. I forgot to include the whole agouti thing when talking about the BS black mare, and tommy together, but included it in the above post. Guess thats what happens when you're doing several other color combo's at the same time. I also said about the mare and tommy, that "its all in how they roll their dice" IE, tommy COULD carry agouti, and going back to what I have said all along, IF tommy does have agouti, he WONT show it because he is RED BASED, and agouti only shows on a black base.

but ok then.

Merikle you are helping.. That is why I asked you.. Dunalino and Dunskin are names made up to describe. They are not real and none of the registries reconize them.. When we are talking about color we talk about what is excepted.. Maybe one day down the road they will be. I personally use terms that are excepted in the registries. I do hear those colors mentioned by other people alot.. I know what they are describing when they say it. Doesn't matter though because according to the registries they are not real.

I have never seen a sliver bay. I am guessing that is a gray with black points since silver is not reconized either? I do not agree or disagree with those descriptions.

What is agouti? The other thing that was mentioned is to have him checked for Lethal white? That makes no sense to me since he is QH. I just wonder if people decided to do that when AQHA decided to take all that color in to their registry.. This has not been done in the past..

Bluejay wrote:

Merikle you are helping.. That is why I asked you.. Dunalino and Dunskin are names made up to describe. They are not real and none of the registries reconize them.. When we are talking about color we talk about what is excepted.. Maybe one day down the road they will be. I personally use terms that are excepted in the registries. I do hear those colors mentioned by other people alot.. I know what they are describing when they say it. Doesn't matter though because according to the registries they are not real.

I have never seen a sliver bay. I am guessing that is a gray with black points since silver is not reconized either? I do not agree or disagree with those descriptions.

What is agouti? The other thing that was mentioned is to have him checked for Lethal white? That makes no sense to me since he is QH. I just wonder if people decided to do that when AQHA decided to take all that color in to their registry.. This has not been done in the past..

The whole issue here that I am trying to address is while Dunskin or dunalino are NOT recognized by many of the bigger (most of them) associations, they ARE actual colors. The whole point of the different names is to determine the different color genetics at play, of course there is slight variations between the same color and different horses, but generally they have such and such to make them _____ color.

Using the word dunskin is the exact same as using the word bay. Dunskin is technically a bay horse with a creme gene and the dun modifer, and a bay is a black based horse with atleast one copy of the agouti modifier.... So just because bay is a more well known term.... does that mean I should just refer to it as black? even though they are not genetically the same color?

Thats also like saying a blue jay is just poppy cock, and its just the same as a robin, they are technically the same type of word, but possibly one is more rare or unknown than the other.

AQHA and APHA does not recognize these colors.... YET, thats because like the thoroughbred lines, they are supposed to only come in a certain amount of colors....

You know Hollywood Dun It.... right? well, have you seen some sons and daughters by him that are say off of bay or sorrel mares..... wowee! they are buckskin! did you also notice how Hollywood DunIt had a dorsal stripe? So WITHOUT testing him for his color genetics, and just watching his offspring..... he proved himself to be a dunskin, carrying the dun gene AND a single creme gene. If he was dun, its is GENTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to create a buckskin out of a sorrel mare. remember, buckskins DO NOT have a dorsal stripe.

The reason the registries do not recognize it is because they are not common, with time like some of the other new colors added.... they will be too.

Silver is a seperate gene as well.... I own a silver bay mare, "Merikle". I will add pics later and give more info on it.... k bluejay? just for you!

as for the lethal white.... why they suggested this is because like you say, Tommy throws "crop outs".... this means, he HAS to carry a tobiano, or overo gene somewhere...... meaning he should be tested to prove he is not a carrier of OWLS (lethal white), so if bred to a paint mare who possibly has OWLS they do not give a lethal white foal. Go to www.apha.com and read on OWLS... they have some good info there!

Also The agouti modifier........here it is in a glance....


A/a, A/A
The agouti modifier only affects horses with a black base. It can be carried by a red based horse, you just won't see it. (It's offspring, however may show it...)
The Agouti modifier in dominant form A simply removes the black pigment from the main body areas (remember, lack of black = red.) It leaves the black on the legs, mane, tail, muzzle and sometimes ear tips.
The recessive form, a is a "lack of the Agouti modifer", meaning it can't modify the horse.


Dun Dilution Gene, D/d, D/D
The Dun gene in its dominant form D dilutes the coloration of both black based horses and red based horses. The D gene will do the same level of dilution whether it is in Heterozygous form or in Homozygous form. There is no "extra strength" dilution by Dun.
The recessive d simply means a "Lack of Dun" and the horse will not have dun characteristics, nor pass them on to offspring.
Dilution effects are on the main part of the body, and dilutes the original shade to a lighter color, leaving the original shade on the legs, muzzle, ears, mane and tail. Dun is also characterized by the distinct "Dorsal Stripe." This stripe is the original shade of color, matching that of the other points, and runs from the base of the mane, to the base of the tail. Dun horses MUST HAVE this stripe to be considered Dun. Other "Dun Factor" markings include the shoulder cross, bars along the dorsal stripe, cobwebbing on the legs and forehead.

Dun on black = Grulla / Grullo
Dun on bay = Bay Dun, (commonly called Zebra Dun, or just Dun.)
Dun on red = Red Dun
Dun on Buckskin = Dunskin
Dun on Palomino = Dunalino

I hate to tell you this but a bluejay is not a robin and is a whole different bird.. I will be happy to post some photos of that if you like me to.. I have both of them in my yard.

And, dunskin and dunalino are not reconized by any breed or color association that I know of. I am current in AQHA, APHA, ApHA, PHBA and ABRA. When they reconize those as color then I will agree with you. Until then we have to go with what the associations have for color. Not our choice just the way it is. You can call those colors until the cows come home. You just cannot register them that way.. Of course if you do not have a registry to go to then it does not matter. Same situation with a mare I just got rid of who is a liver chestnut roan. No such color.. Yes that is her color. Just not reconized.

I am happy you believe they are real. The fact is they are not and likely never will be. I have read many of the same things you are reading about genetics. It is very interesting. I have personal exlerience that things do not always come out the way the books say they will and they do mention color that is not reconized by the associations. I think it all sounds silly.. I am not knocking you either. You believe what many other people do. What is important to me is what color I can register my horse and with what association. That is all.

Bluejay wrote:

I hate to tell you this but a bluejay is not a robin and is a whole different bird.. I will be happy to post some photos of that if you like me to.. I have both of them in my yard.

lol i know they are different birds lol, it was simply me trying to make a point. they are two completely different birds....as dunskin and dun are two completely different colors.

a color is a color, wether or not the registries allow it as a color choice IMO. You can call it dun, or whatever you like, does not mean gentically that that is the actual color of the horse. You want to call it purple, do whatever tickles your fancy, just dont expect someone to be able to tell you REAL possible foal color outcomes off of that.

and what I meant by some associations have some colors you can register that are not in APHA or AQHA, some are in the small associations, like my CPHA, I think there are some there that aren't on the AQHA or APHA list (can't remember fully...).


ok, I promised to show a pic of my silver bay... She has not been tested YET, but I wanted to see if she would prove it through her foals.... only problem is if her 07 baby got it....she could very well be a silver buckskin as it makes them look pally..... but idk? so ill test the filly lol.

See, a chestnut/sorrel with just a flaxen mane and tail usually do have a bit of white hair below the knee..... but do you see her black? she also does not have a normal flaxen mane... but some black in it... her muzzle is as dark as my dun and bay mares as well. Silver is like agouti... but opposite.... while agouti limits black points, silver dilutes them. Agouti does not show on anything but a black base, and neither does silver.... but both will show in offspring if they have recieved it.




ETA, go to www.doubledilute.com then go to the color board..... try and tell them that the only horse colors out there are what the registries offer for color choices.... have fun with their responses.......

My goodness. She looks like a paly with black on her legs

I know some paly have really dark mane and tails. Like Tardy Too. I think he is the one with a very dark mane and tail. And, Yella Fella does not have a white mane and tail either..

Sometimes we just get odd colors that no one has ever heard of. I have a few like that. Not red and not chestnut. Light mane and tails..

Noramlly the paly folks will call that chocolate for lack of anything else to call it. I did not see any silver But, I think of gray since silver is not really a color with except of course my silver hair..

I'm with you on that, Bluejay. I'm still not quite sure where this blonding of the mane comes from on Cool and Kid's babies. I do know the skunk tail comes from Kid's grandmother, but that's all I know. I don't care, though, I think they're purrttyyyy... HA!

I really like my mare... regardless of her color but would be nice to have a silver bay, even if she is grade, her babies with my stud are registerable, showable, and able to accumulate breed points... They are also proving to be awesome kids horses.... just sold her 5 yr old daughter for $3500!

this is her 5 yr old daughter being ridden by my best friend. I am so proud,.. I trained this girl from start to finish all on my own. She's the first horse I have ever trained.



here are some better pics of her, im not sure if she is silver bay, but she carries all of the characteristics!

Merikle in the winter... very pregnant with my 07 filly lexus




Her and her 05 colt Logann..... Look at her tail head... instead of being full out "flaxen", she has a lot of black



Merikle when I got her with her 2 month old filly... the now "5 yr old". Let me remind you.... her only white markings are the star on her face.



Fat Merikle... a photo from summer 06

The horse your friend is on looks to be a bay roan.. Now, that is not a color either.. I had some friends who had a blue roan with black/brown points and that is what they called her. I thought she just looked blue roan to me.. I would expect that shade to have black points. And a red roan to have red points.. LOL...

Bluejay, says The horse your friend is on looks to be a bay roan, that is just what I was thinking.

Bluejay wrote:

The horse your friend is on looks to be a bay roan.. Now, that is not a color either.. I had some friends who had a blue roan with black/brown points and that is what they called her. I thought she just looked blue roan to me.. I would expect that shade to have black points. And a red roan to have red points.. LOL...

Yes the 5 year old is a bay roan... before I knew colors, I couldnt figure out what the heck she was LOL

Buck N Blue has a true blue roan.... its a black horse with roan, to varying degrees of course... but her's is GORGEOUS! GOTTA Looove vegas!

a bay roan (and I have seen this as an option to register, and it is actually quite common!), is just a bay horse with a roan gene... she has a bay head with black mane and tail and socks, thats what the agouti did to her... limited her black points....

she even threw me a buckskin... that later roaned out! now thats uncommon! I was mad LOL, I wanted a buckskin, not a buckskin roan! lol oh well, he is an awesome horse!

I was referring to the bay roans dam as silver bay, not her... just to clear that up. If I knew the sires color of the bay roan... I would love it!

Nope dont see the silver bay either. Sorry. I see Sorrel with flaxen.

Triple J Quarter Horses wrote:

Nope dont see the silver bay either. Sorry. I see Sorrel with flaxen.

if you dont "believe" in dunskin, or silver bay or any of the unusual colors... then, of course you're not going to see it lol, but thats fine, I was just trying to provide an example for blue jay... there is also tons of info on the net

im gettin her tested, as well as her daughter... its easier to pinpoint the genes at work then.

AQHA accepted bay roan as a color a while ago. Which helps, as some people were registering them as red roans, and therefore they should not be able to throw a black based baby off a red based stud.
We had a buckskin filly that started to roan out. Looked cool.
As to my cheating and using a color calculator, yes I admit it, I did. Now I have a notebook filled with color possibilities. WAY less work. Although I am trying to figure it out and just use the book to see if I am correct.