anyone have some possible foal colors they want to know?

alright, so with all of you breeding..... do you want to know the color outcomes?

I'm trying to help reiningfan learn color, so after giving her some info on color genetics, I want her to figure out the color possibilites for you guys here....

If Any one else wants to learn..... I can help you too!

So post, sire: color, Dam: Color, foal: ?????

If one of the parents is grey, please post parent colors of that grey.

I will start (colors are SOOOO tricky!)

Sire: Bay + Dam: Black = Foal: ?????

Later I will post a picture of the colt this mare has this year. She is bred (hopefully) to the same stud for next year.

I got one!

Stud: Blue Roan

Dam: Palomino

What are the possibilities of a palomino roan?

Ahh! I'm not ready yet. I'll spend some time over the weekend trying to figure these out. Why couldn't you have asked something I already knew? LOL

Oh!!!! To throw you for a loop.....

Sire: Sorrel + Dam: Bay = Foal: ?????

ok Ill play mare-dark seal brown stallion-red chestnut- foal???? coming 2008---- mare has thrown over 50% black in similar crosses this year I got chestnut filly out of her



ok same stallion different mare

aqha and I have fought over this this is in july (2 yr old pic) after lots of sun this mare has a very prominent dorsal stripe dark in the face and dark knees/hocks I think she is a red dun they won't change her papers because her sire and damn are supposedly sorrels funny her next year full brother is a registered red dun-grrrr anyways I know technically it will be a chestnut/sorrel what are some other opinions just from the picture of her I know no matter what it will be awsome she is really taking to pregnancy and is blossoming!

Lynn M. wrote:

ok Ill play mare-dark seal brown stallion-red chestnut- foal???? coming 2008---- mare has thrown over 50% black in similar crosses this year I got chestnut filly out of her



ok same stallion different mare

aqha and I have fought over this this is in july (2 yr old pic) after lots of sun this mare has a very prominent dorsal stripe dark in the face and dark knees/hocks I think she is a red dun they won't change her papers because her sire and damn are supposedly sorrels funny her next year full brother is a registered red dun-grrrr anyways I know technically it will be a chestnut/sorrel what are some other opinions just from the picture of her I know no matter what it will be awsome she is really taking to pregnancy and is blossoming!

tsk tsk lynn!!! You will confuse her! LOL

Ok to help her out here........ Lynn is calling this mare seal brown, but if she is bred to a red stud, and has thrown black.... she is clearly NOT seal brown, but black or bay. Overall, she has a black base, as to have a black foal, you need a black based parent, and daddy only has red to offer......

Lynn - The mare, while she does look to have cobwebbing on her face (making her face appear darker (it is a "dun trait")), I do not see leg barring. A horse cannot simply have a dun stripe and be a dun... sometimes its a mock dorsal, and sometimes its counter shading.... especially on foals.

Since there is yet a test for dun, of course you can wait it out and find out through her foals...... and thats fairly easy with a red stud... but sometimes a dun horse will never throw a dun baby... its all in how the dice rolls so to speak.

Question.... Does the "dun" stripe run into her tail? any shoulder barring? pics?

OK, this one will be for next years breeding season.

BS black piant mare DNA'd for the black gene X Sorrel with high white socks...

I got this mare this year. I figured since Tommy was thowing crop outs on QH mares I might get lucky on this BS black mare.. What cha think?

Bluejay it will for sure be pretty! Hopefully black with tall socks over the knees wouldn't that be cool

OK, Here's what I've got
Palomino to Blue Roan
8.33% smokey blue roan
8.33% smokey black
8.33% buckskin roan
8.33% buckskin
8.33% blue roan
8.33% black
8.33% bay roan
8.33% bay
8.33% palomino roan
8.33% palomino
8.33% chestnut/sorrel roan
8.33% chestnut/sorrel

sorrel/chestnut to bay
58.34% bay
33.33% chestnut
8.33% black

Brennen's buckskin mare (the one in my sig) bred to Gun, my sorrel stud
29.17% buckskin
29.17% bay
16.67% palomino
16.67% chestnut/sorrel
4.17% smokey black
4.17% black

If the paint mare is homozygous for black, bred to a sorrel/ chestnut
50% black
50% bay

Merikle, e have mare here who's registered as sorrel, but has a dorsal stripe and leg barring. I would call her a red dun, although she is darker than what my other red duns are. Does the leg barring mean she's dun?

Lynn, that is just what I was thinking on the black. Would be nice to get that..

reiningfan, the leg baring is a dun factor.. In fact at an ABRA show in the color class they get judged on how much they have. Red duns like buckskin can vary in color. They can go from very light to dark. Such as the filly on my author page.. She has a dorsal that you can only see on her hip now. It spread out over her back and she turned very dark. She is what they call smutty buckskin. She does not have much in the way of leg baring. Her points are so black you cannot see it. Mine does have a lot of shoulder baring and cob webs.

Not all horses with a dorsal are considered dun. However, the registry does take some of them. In fact there was a gal around here showing a chestnut in ABRA and all she had was a light dorsal.. She took her to the world and got reserve world champion on her.. Made some people mad. According to their rule book this cannot be so. However, this horse went to all the ABRA shows and got tons of points.

On ABRA papers they underline in red the known dun horses.. I do believe you have to have that on the pedigree to get papers on them. If there is no dun on the paper then they say it is not possible. HUM, it can be in the back ground. I have a sorrel mare with a dorsal that puts one on her babies. I do not consider her a dun.

You can take all the shots and see if they take her. Never hurts to try if you are interested in getting her registerd dun.

Seems it does not matter what the rules say on it. I have seen a bunch at the shows I would not consider dun according to the rules.. And, the judges are giving them awards. There was other rumblings at the world show about a horse winning everything that was a bay not a dun. The bay colt I sold this year has a dorsal and leg baring. His sire and my buckskins sire was a dun..

hey hey now! You cheated! you used a color calculator!

I do it right off the top of my head!

here, I will answer.... because the color calculator does not have all the little itty bitty pieces, that I have.

Blue Jay - ok, so she was color tested and came out black based.... so is she homozygous black? (it will say EE on her papers under black based, or Eumelanin), or heterozygous black (Ee)? Has Tommy ever thrown a foal with agouti (ie, bay buckskin) on a black based mare?

CantJog wrote:

I will start (colors are SOOOO tricky!)

Sire: Bay + Dam: Black = Foal: ?????

Later I will post a picture of the colt this mare has this year. She is bred (hopefully) to the same stud for next year.

This has to be the easiest one here...

Bay- So this horse is black based, with atleast one agouti modifier, but we dont know if he is homo black, or hetero black, or homo agouti, or hetero agouti. So we assume he is hetero for both.

Black- ok, so all we know, is this horse DOES NOT have any agouti, or else she would be bay. We don't know if she is homo or hetero black, so we assume she is hetero for black.

Foal color outcomes

Black, red, bay

also, could have a homo black foal, or a homo black bay with one copy of agouti.

Bucks&Blues wrote:

I got one!

Stud: Blue Roan

Dam: Palomino

What are the possibilities of a palomino roan?

ok, now its getting complicated....

Blue roan- ok, so this horse has NO AGOUTI, and could be heterozygous black, or homo black, he is also carrying one or two copies of the roan gene, we will assume he is carrying only one gene.

Palomino- so this is a red based horse, with a single creme gene. We dont know if she carries agouti, because she is red based, and agouti only effects black bases (ie, creating bay, buckskin, perlino ), but she very well could be homo or hetero for agouti effecting the foal color outcomes.

Foal color outcomes.
-without mare carrying agouti
Black, Red, Smokey black, Palomino, blue roan, red roan, smokey blue roan, palomino roan.

with mare carrying one agouti modifier

Black, red, smokey black, bay, palomino, buckskin, blue roan, red roan, smokey black roan, bay roan, palomino roan, and buckskin roan.

CantJog wrote:

Oh!!!! To throw you for a loop.....

Sire: Sorrel + Dam: Bay = Foal: ?????

sorrel = red based ( I call all sorrels/chestnuts red's when doing this, because they are not a different color, but just different shades.), so since this horse is red based, he could carry agouti, but it is hidden because he is red based, and agouti only effects black bases.

dam- (black based horse, with agouti), we dont know if she is hetero black, or homo black, or hetero agouti, or homo agouti, so I will calculate both.


Foal color outcomes
-mare homo for both black and agouti

black, bay

-Mare homo for just black, and hetero for agouti
Black, bay (more than likely black unless partner carries agouti), if partner carries agouti, the foal could be homo agouti

Mare hetero for agouti and black

Black, bay, red

Bluejay wrote:

OK, this one will be for next years breeding season.

BS black piant mare DNA'd for the black gene X Sorrel with high white socks...

I got this mare this year. I figured since Tommy was thowing crop outs on QH mares I might get lucky on this BS black mare.. What cha think?

ok, what is her lineage? tobiano? overo? crop out?

I do believe I covered the blackX sorrel mating previously

reiningfan wrote:

Merikle, e have mare here who's registered as sorrel, but has a dorsal stripe and leg barring. I would call her a red dun, although she is darker than what my other red duns are. Does the leg barring mean she's dun?

Usually the slightly darker head, and lighter body, ie red dun, but with a more creamy colored body, PLUS leg barring, and dorsal stripe etc.

Without atleast TWO dun factors showing, I would not be inclined to call them a dun.

Also keep in mind, some horses have mock dorsals, or countershading.... So it makes them look as if they have a dorsal, when its really NOT a dorsal. The key is to basically see the dun stripe from wither down the back, and somewhat through the tail.

how bout some pics?

a lot of people call some horses dun, or red dun etc, when they really aren't. keep that in mind.

Also, it takes atleast ONE DUN parent to create a dun foal. No dun parent = NOT DUN.

Bluejay, if your mare is producing dun foals, she has to be a dun.

He is shedding out a DARK chestnut. RD has been 3/4 for sorrels with a bay. She likes to stamp them, LOL! Sorrel... face white... back white. Except for my bay.... face white... back white

And oddly, the same black mare has foaled a black and a brown by a chesnut stud. Little face white and back white

Edited to Add..... You are GOOD!!! The 2nd one was of RD (black mare)

..OK all this chatter is complicated. The Black mare was not DNA'd till after she was a few years old. she is homo for the balck gene. Here is what is on her papers.. Dam is solid black...She has black toby and QH on her side.. Does not say what the QH were. The sire is blue roan/overo. He has red roan/overo and red dun/overo on his side. Others are QH and look to be some old time and maybe running.. The only foals she had were black and white toby. Course that was cheating since the stud is Homo and he is black and white toby..

Now my stud only has two on the ground.. One out of a chestnut roan and the other sorrel. They both have red all over them. Of course.. Crop outs too on QH mares.

The sorrel with the dorsal is not a dun. She has dun way back. She just puts a dorsal on some of her babies.. They are not dun either.. Her last colt was buy a big buttermild dun with balck points. Buckskin except he has the dorsal.. You can imagine what I should have got.. Grandpa came out a screeming and he was bay.. LOL. Oh, well, so much for what he should have been. Still a nice horse though.. Grand sire is Sir Cool Skip.. He does have a dorsal though..

Will be fun to se what happens on that cross..

Bluejay wrote:

..OK all this chatter is complicated. The Black mare was not DNA'd till after she was a few years old. she is homo for the balck gene. Here is what is on her papers.. Dam is solid black...She has black toby and QH on her side.. Does not say what the QH were. The sire is blue roan/overo. He has red roan/overo and red dun/overo on his side. Others are QH and look to be some old time and maybe running.. The only foals she had were black and white toby. Course that was cheating since the stud is Homo and he is black and white toby..

Now my stud only has two on the ground.. One out of a chestnut roan and the other sorrel. They both have red all over them. Of course.. Crop outs too on QH mares.

The sorrel with the dorsal is not a dun. She has dun way back. She just puts a dorsal on some of her babies.. They are not dun either.. Her last colt was buy a big buttermild dun with balck points. Buckskin except he has the dorsal.. You can imagine what I should have got.. Grandpa came out a screeming and he was bay.. LOL. Oh, well, so much for what he should have been. Still a nice horse though.. Grand sire is Sir Cool Skip.. He does have a dorsal though..

Will be fun to se what happens on that cross..

Ok, if she is homo for black.... then all you're gonna get from that is a black foal.... now wether colored or not, thats up to how Tommy and the mare roll their dice.... might be interesting to test the mare for the sabino gene, as well as the tobiano gene... Actually I would personally test tommy too!

Another thing..... If she just has a dorsal, but is not dun. Do not refer to her as a dun. if she is chestnut, call her a chestnut. if anyone asks about the dorsal, tell them it is a MOCK dorsal, or countershading. She has also then not produced duns, but produced the same countershading or mock dorsals on her foals.

Unless you are very clear with this, it will confuse people. Also, every horse with the agouti modifier has black points... therefore it is not neccesary to refer to them as horses with black points. Bay, Buckskin, and duns, ALL have black points, and for one reason... they carry the agouti modifier. Agouti shows itself on a black based horse if they have it, if they dont, they will be black.

There is such a thing as a buttermilk buckskin (the buttermilk buckskin is ABSOLUTELY the same as a buckskin in genetic terms, just a different shade such as sorrels VS Chestnut, and Golden palomino VS pale palomino), however, many people do NOT see the true difference in a Dun, and a buckskin, but there is a HUGE difference.

Dun- Golden to light tan colored, black points (because of agouti), leg barring, dorsal stripe (That runs down the back from wither and into the tail), Shoulder barring, cobwebbing etc.

A dun's body is lighter, but is really a bay genetically underneath everything. The DUN modifier causes the body color to lighten, such as the case with a grullo, or red dun, (grullo- Black horse with atleast one copy of the dun modifier, red dun- Red based horse with atleast one copy of the dun modifier, Bay dun- this horse stays bay colored (black + Agouti), but also has the dun modifier).

Buckskin- Light to tan colored, black points (because of agouti).

A buckskin is a bay horse (Black + Agouti), with ONE copy of the creme gene. They DO NOT have dun stripes.

If a horse carries Dun factor AND a creme gene, they are referred to as a DUNSKIN (buckskin X Dun).

however- remember Dunskin is not a recognized color in most any associations even though many people use the term... not trying to be mean here (personally I hate that term they are a dun! we don't need a million different colors to register horses)


and I got this off of a great web site- in fact there were more than one that said the same thing..... so I would think it goes both ways ie: a homozygous black mare bred to a chestnut or sorrel stud... she could throw a bay bred to Tommy

A mare bred to a Homozygous black stallion can produce the following foal coat colors:

Mare Coat Color/ Resulting Foal Color
Black/ Black
Bay/ Black or Bay
Chestnut or Sorrel/ Black or Bay
Grey/ Grey, Black, or Bay

Lynn M. wrote:

however- remember Dunskin is not a recognized color in most any associations even though many people use the term... not trying to be mean here (personally I hate that term they are a dun! we don't need a million different colors to register horses)


and I got this off of a great web site- in fact there were more than one that said the same thing..... so I would think it goes both ways ie: a homozygous black mare bred to a chestnut or sorrel stud... she could throw a bay bred to Tommy

A mare bred to a Homozygous black stallion can produce the following foal coat colors:

Mare Coat Color/ Resulting Foal Color
Black/ Black
Bay/ Black or Bay
Chestnut or Sorrel/ Black or Bay
Grey/ Grey, Black, or Bay

dunskin is not usually a recognized color in breed associations... yes, neither is dunalino, silver bay, etc. HOWEVER they ARE actual equine colors.

The point of all these different names is not neccesarily to register a horse (half the breed associations dont recognize the special colors anyways), but it is the same as being able to regognize a babboon apart from an ape type thing.

Dunskin is a PROPER word. why? because DUN and DUNSKIN are TWO VERY DIFFERENT colors. a dun is as I described before, a dunskin is a dun with a creme gene. hence the need for two different names, because it is two different colors.

This is color genetics, and without being able to single out the different parental genetics at hand, you can't figure out the foal's color genetics .

some may think its silly, but I find it all rather interesting... hence how I know so much about it. And if you are breeding quality horses, why not know if you can get some of those special colors from a potential cross? what can it hurt? everyone knows color does sell, so why not try and produce a quality horse, with some shiney wrapping to add appeal?

just my $0.02

ETA: also, I covered the "homo black to red" mating... and explained WHY you can get a bay by a homo mare and a red stud. A bay is a horse with ATLEAST one agouti modifier. If the resulting foal is bay, then you KNOW the red sire is carrying atleast ONE agouti modifiier, the mare is NOT carrying an agouti modifier, or she would be bay.

Grey is something totoally different. You must first figure out what the base color of the horse is, ie: behind the grey. To have a grey, the horse MUST have atleast one grey parent.

So if a Hetero agouti, hetero black Bay is bred to a red based heterozygous (meaning they only carry ONE copy of the grey gene) grey,

they will produce
Bay, Black, Red.

ALL having a 50/50 chance of getting the grey gene from their parent, and turning grey.

Grey DOES NOT HIDE. If they have it, they will show it.

This is one thing in life I am 100% sure on, and if you look back at my statements, and take into regard ALL the different genes I am including, I am right, and so is those sites.

True there is no such thing as a dunskin or a dunalino. ABRA is very clear on what is and is not a dun color.. My point is that they do let those go by and the judges place them. They should get the boot as far as I am concerned.. I wrote them about the chestnut and even sent them pictures of her. They did not respond. I also asked them why the judges do not know the difference and place them? No response.

My friend the paint breeder I got the black mare told me she would have either black or bay.. I would prefer the black with all the chrome and socks though. It will be fun to see what I get.. Of, course everyone here will be the first to know.. So now you all have to stick around for a few more years..