Horrible News...

I just got the conformation on some news that has basically killed my breeding dreams for the next few years. Scotch, who we have put so much time and money into promoting, is a cryptorchid. We are scheduling to have him gelded, and then he will be sold. I am just in complete shock that I have to start completely over, and I don't even know where to begin. I don't even have the money to look right now... It seems like life has a continuous way of screwing me over.

I am sorry for your bad news but maybe you will find something much better in the future. These things happen for a reason. Kudos for you gelding him right away.

Thanks, I appreciate it. We are actually looking to the same breeder, but a different sire and dam. She is going to make us a good deal on a colt, our only problem is that right now most of her crop is fillies. In my eyes, a stallion needs to be as close to perfect as possible, and unless I can see two, it's just as bad, if not worse, than breeding a parrot mouth stallion.

Well, for criminey sakes! Did I ever tell you the story of a colt that we had like that?

Bought him sight unseen, a buckskin overo - bred out the yazoo... so in his 2-year old year, I think it was, I did some research, found out about a hormone they give these studs, and called the vet - now this mess cost me about $1,000, but you shoot them up with this stuff for so long and then quit and wait. Well, I'd sorta given up on it, and we had a cutting breeding stock filly, and we bred her to him, knowing full well, if it was a colt, we were going to geld it...still, I didn't think much about it.... many months later, vet came out, and we were checking teeth, doing shots, etc... he says, when did he drop? OMG, I looked down - sure 'nuf he'd dropped. Apparently it was stuck in the ring, vet said with him breeding that one mare, up high, etc., probably made it go ahead and pop out.

He went on to breed 2 more mares, and all were fillies, but his babies were prettty danged nice. He got gelded at some point, just because I didn't want to have to deal with 3 stallions...

I'd get the vet to ultrasound to see where it is... if it's in the ring - well, then it's your call.

My deal with this is that if it's not down on it's own, he is genetically a cryptorchid. When bred to a normal mare, he will produce (out of four horses) 1 cryptorchid, 1 normal, and 2 carriers. And mares have this gene too, so if the mare has the xx (crypt gene) and is breed to a carrier stallion, it's going to be the same deal with the babies. This is just a big mess that I don't ever want to tarnish my reputation over. I feel better about this now, my breeder friend in Canada has three pleasure babies due this year out of Radical Revolution, a bunch from an Invitation Only (no crypts here though) son, and another Impulsions bred horse that I like real well. I'm actually excited about a nice bay... It's just the starting completely over part that is kind of nerve racking. At the same time, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of not dealing with the breeding mess next year. This way, I will have two solid more years to finish my facilities and get my crap together. Hopefully with one like this who is bred to be in the show ring, I won't have to bend and mold so much. These horses are all especially loungeline prospects, good for in hand trail right now too. Depends on how much body they have wether or not I'll do any halter... I am selling my unpapered black filly and my grey filly, if I can get those two sold asap, I might keep Scotch to show, but I don't know for sure yet.

so sorry!!!!!

Been there done that. Went Res. Grand Champion First AQHA Show, and poof, now a gelding! A lesson well learned.. See if the breeder if that is the breeding you want to promote, will do some sort of trade.

She is going to make me a great deal on a new baby. I have been buying horses from her for over five years now and I have been very good about promoting their business and their stallions from showing their babies. I'm hoping to have to only pay the shipping fee, but we'll see. They owe me for this one, and they know it. But hey, atleast they are trying to make it right...

that would be super nice if she does that for you, or does she have a stud you like she would ship semen on for you if she doesn't have a foal you like then maybe you could breed one of your own mares this year?

I took one of mine in for the same reason. She (the vet) could feel just a bit of it. When she sedated him the thing just popped right down. Normal size and not stuck up there. He was not a cryp ORCH.. Your horse is still young. Some do not drop until they are long 2yr olds and sometimes 3.

I took him in expecting the surgery on him. The vet called me and said they are both there and normal.. I had already been trough the emotional part and told her to geld him anyway...

If it were my horse and I wanted to use them I would wait and see what happens. Also, you should have noticed this long before now.. It has not been proven that this can be passed on.. And, if he is just tucking it up there now and then that is a different story.. Where would Yella Fella be if that was the case? Just take you time and watch him.. If you have never seen it then that is another story. Don't rush in..

We noticed the problem about eight months ago and we have been watching him closely. We let him cover a mare, we have had him sedated, and we've had him palpated after none of that helped the situation. It was our intention to keep this to just a few people until we knew for sure. And actually, as far as the genetic thing goes, unless there is an abnormality of the ring, as such the case of Yella Fella, where it just never closed properly, they are a cryptorchid and it is a genetic defect. It is proven, their is now genetic testing being studied to test mares for the gene also. It is a recessive gene that works in exactly the same way as HYPP and OWLS. Realistically, vets worry about it at 18 months, which is when the ring should close. Even in cases as Mr. Yella Fella, which we study in class, the testicle that travels through the ring has compromised fertility and that is why they have to ship a larger volume of semen out, there is a higher dead ratio because the temperature of the body kills the semen. Every vet that I have spoken with about this has confirmed that if it is not down at two, it is not coming down.

You can tell all your vets they're wrong.... Doc's didn't come down until he was mid-3.

I agree with 7C....My Arab stud didn't drop til well into his 3rd summer.

By APHA (and I think AQHA) halter standards if they're not down at 2, then they are called a crypt, however Ive heard of many studs who dont drop till around 3 ish... sometimes it depends on the stud. I have a colt out of my old foundation QH mare, who ya wouldnt even know has dropped... but if you did, you can find the little raisins.. Versus my Overo colt, who's had em very visible since 3 months! LOL

Also, they *can* pass it on, however a perfectly normal stallion and mare can produce one as well... Thats been found often as well.

I am sorry to hear this news... but IMO I would give him a little more time.

They DO pass it on, one in every four colts if bred to a normal mare. The thing is, mares carry the cryptorchid gene also. So actually, a perfectly normal stallion and mare cannot produce a crypt. Unless it is a medical problem (aka injury) they have to carry the gene to be a crypt.

SilverBuckleHorses wrote:

We noticed the problem about eight months ago and we have been watching him closely. We let him cover a mare, we have had him sedated, and we've had him palpated after none of that helped the situation. It was our intention to keep this to just a few people until we knew for sure. And actually, as far as the genetic thing goes, unless there is an abnormality of the ring, as such the case of Yella Fella, where it just never closed properly, they are a cryptorchid and it is a genetic defect. It is proven, their is now genetic testing being studied to test mares for the gene also. It is a recessive gene that works in exactly the same way as HYPP and OWLS. Realistically, vets worry about it at 18 months, which is when the ring should close. Even in cases as Mr. Yella Fella, which we study in class, the testicle that travels through the ring has compromised fertility and that is why they have to ship a larger volume of semen out, there is a higher dead ratio because the temperature of the body kills the semen. Every vet that I have spoken with about this has confirmed that if it is not down at two, it is not coming down.

Thats strange, When I bred to Mr. Yella Fella, It was a normal colletion amount. My vet and I talked about it, I was breeding to 2 stallions that year. One, Clue Times Two, sent in like 3 sacks! When we opened the Carrier, My vet was like, I wonder if theres a problem with them sending so much. Yellas, was just a good collection amount. My vet took samples back to check both collections, They both were Very good. I called Narmonts Barn Manager, they said they had extra, They packed mine last so I got the surplus. Both mares got in foal. Narmonts, collection and shipping was higher then Keifers.

I think you are doing the right thing if you remember our discussion noone on here would breed to a crypt so... if the research shows that genetics will carry this then you are doing the right thing don't doubt that unless there is a way to identify the gene and you can test to confirm?

If I were you, I'd give it a chance to drop naturally on it's own. If it's not down by three, then I would geld him. I just wouldn't plan on any breeding until you knew 100% for sure. I wish you both the best of luck and I'll keep scoth in my prayers!

Unfortunalty some people have it all fugured out. It depends on who you talk to. It's never been proven to be gentically passed on. If you think it through you would know that. Your colt is barely two and a late bloomer. But, if you believe all that and think you have it all figured out you should geld him right away and then you will never know for sure.. But, you will have a gelding you like very much..

All the Yella Fella stuff mentioned here except the one that has received shipped semen from him is HOO HA.. If you know anything about transported semen you would know that you cannot just through in extra raw semen.. That is not how it's done.. I have done this for years and I have also gone through Equine Repro at the University of Oregon Equine school. I also ship semen and only do AI with my mares. I say HOO HA on all that.. The proplem was finding the right extender to work on his semen.. PERIOD.. Nothing to do with his balls..

No offense to anyone here. Just stating what I know for a fact.. You have to do what you have to do. And, I totally agree with a wait and see since you cannot put them back on. And, that surgery is very $$$$$... If they do not have to go into the abdomin for them then you made the wrong choice. Unless of course you wanted to geld him anyway..

If you know anything about transported semen you would know that you cannot just through in extra raw semen.. That is not how it's done.. I have done this for years and I have also gone through Equine Repro at the University of Oregon Equine school. I also ship semen and only do AI with my mares. I say HOO HA on all that.. The proplem was finding the right extender to work on his semen.. PERIOD.. Nothing to do with his balls..

I dont think RAW SEMEN was mentioned, I have collected, and been cert. , been a few years, but I went to Lexington, Ky for it. I agree about the extender. My Mare was in foal to Mr Yella Fella, when she died in her sleep. The big shipment from Clue Times Two, resulted in a sorrel filly.

Im sure though that the owners of Mr Yella Fella would be interested in the fact that the rumor of such things are being studied in a class in AZ. Since there is no printed information out there on this. I know Jerry Harmon, the manager for James Keifer. In fact I talked to her on the way back from congress the first year Yella Fella won it. When he was being sold, She gave me a whole differant reason for him being sold, if fact 1/2 ownership was retained at the time of the actual sale. Of corse later they sold the retained ownership as well. They also reserved breedings to him.

SilverBuckleHorses What class is this that he is being mentioned in???

Triple J, I didn't mean that we studied Mr. Yella Fella, we study those types of cases in class, not HIS. Sorry for the confusion there. I'm actually a big fan of Mr. Yella Fella and have considered him one of the few stallions I would pay to breed to for a halter baby.

This is pretty much all I think I'm going to need to say on this topic now:

Here is the thing. We had Scotch rectally palpated to feel for where the testicle actually was, it is in his abdomen. It has been genetically proven to be passed on, I will get you multiple text on this if you need me too, but then again, I'm guessing that it will not matter, because vets and scientists don't know anything, right? As far as thinking it through goes, oh yeah, I guess that with this colt that I have invested thousands of dollars in, that I just make random decisions to geld him without the opinion of multiple vets and a lot of research. Yes, that is how I function in my every day life.

I can't believe there were just recently these comments in a prior post, but opinions seem to change huh?
"If the horse was born that way it's my understanding they can pass this on."

"I wouldn't want to breed my mare to him because it's my understanding it's a genetic trait."

"Yep, it's definitely genetic, and I wouldn't breed to one."

"WHY would you breed to a cryptorchid? It is genetic's, IF the Testical is left up in the wall, it can tun into Cancer, also due to the temp around it, most of the time sperm in zero or so low that a mare will not get in foal. Not only can this be passed on but a health issue. That is why it is frowned upon."

It would not be fair for me to keep this stallion a stallion just for the sake of waiting. Testicles DO NOT stay in the abdomen until they are three. They will stick around the ring, and you can find them down low, but not in the upper abdomen. If someone would like to know about the credentials of some of the vets we had working with us, here is one staff page. http://durangoequine.com/staff.htm The other two practices do not have websites, but the other two vets that we used have over 30 years experience in the breeding field also. But once again, what would they know? I probably won't be around the next three weeks to continue to hear people telling me that I'm doing the wrong thing, I have to take a three week training course.

Mommie Dearest is going to add something on here, and then I'll shut up.

First off, some of you young-uns on here, have the uncanny ability to come on here and state something, and then give opinions, and then get your hackles up - and that's fine. Us old-uns remember being that age, but we have more time on ya, and a lot more seeing and doing. Just because someone gives you their opinion, whether it's me, or anybody else on here, that contradicts with science (don't even get me started on that mess!) or whether it contradicts your own opinion, the whole thing boils down to, it's your horse, you do what you want.

But sometimes it wouldn't hurt for you young-uns to have us old-uns opinions. I still, to this day, get opinions from my friends, a couple being 10 plus years older than I am, who have more experience than I do. Some I agree with, some I don't. Doesn't mean I get an attitude about things, just you have your own mind, and that's part of growing up - and trust me, that never changes, no matter how old you are.

To come on here and spout off science and this and that versus real life scenarios and seeing the opposite is a whole other ballgame. To have knowledge with experience is key! How many times did we used to say on the old Quarter Horse forum when people would give advice, you can't really know for sure, until you're actually seeing what's going on. How many vets today disagree with each other on each case scenario? Tons, I'll tell you - I've seen that every gosh-danged time I have something major come up - and I'm about ready to knock both of them out, truthfully.

As far as Scotch, I'll tell you this, I'll just go ahead and say it - truthfully, he's not stud material. And truthfully, probably neither are mine, either, but because we have the love of owning a stallion - there's just something different about them, I call it honesty - no sneaking about with those suckers - and I love riding, handling and dealing with stallions, just don't like to have to deal with the danged mares. And yep, selfisness comes into play here.

So all in all, you might be better off as Scotch as a gelding. With Doc, the one I mentioned earlier, that did drop in his 3rd year, I didn't like that horse - never had, even though I'm the one that bought him. When I got an opporutnity to cut him, I did. When I got an opportunity to sell him - I did.

I think the whole thing we were trying to tell you is, this operation is going to cost a ton of money, and it'd be better for you financially, and maybe even the horse, to wait until he drops, then cut him. We didn't say anything about breeding him in the meantime, well, I might have, but that was just to get him to mount something and if it's up there, to get it to come down - but see, that's my experience with it - I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.

So settle down, quit taking everything so gosh-danged personal, and every once in a while, listen to someone else's opinion - whether it's right or wrong. And heads-up to you young'uns, in case you haven't noticed... because we're OLDER FEMALES, we have a willingness to help and guide you (something you'll also do when you're older), give you our opinions, not belittle you until you get that gosh-danged sarcasm mess in your voice, then it reverts to a motherly thing, and the belts come out to whip ya - HA!

So take it from someone older, when someone gives you advice - listen, you mull it over, you agree or disagree, and then you do what you want - if you mess up, well, you have no one to blame but yourself; if you do well, then kudos to you - you're learning! But when someone does offer you advice, SHUT UP and listen - don't freaking argue! (Sounds like I'm talking to Trent here - criminey! - but I'll give you a little clue where he gets that from - yep, his MOM!) Been there/done that.

Okay, I'll shut up now....Mom's through schooling today!

Mommy Dearest.. The nice thing about this forum is you can through something out there and get many different ideas based on what we all do with our horses. Same thing with the vets. You ask 10 different vets the same question and get 10 different opinions. Most vets know what they know from their books. This is a good basis but is not real life in most cases.. They study what they do to pass the final exam. Then they get out in the world and learn how it really is. Some goes the way the books go and others do not. This is why they network with each other to learn and fix a problem.

This surgery is very expensive and the furthur inside they have to go the more it cost.. If my horse would not drop one I would do the same thing. I would also, not breed to one simply because this is a major defect for a colt. Same for a parrot mouthed horse, crooked legs or any other leg problems or other confirmation defects.

Even if this did not happen it could be something else like low semen count or no semen count.

We just did a Double Crip last fall, The colt I had for sale that was In The KY IF Breeders.. When all was said and done, $1000.00
Had a single done, Like 3 years ago, it ran about $350.00 Wont go near the breeding on that Stud again! A friend of mine has the KYIF Colt, he's 2 now, and guess what, another Double! I checked him saturday, after I gave him some Rompem (SP?) And couldn't find a thing, I suggested they have him Palpated. Well, a vet was coming on Sunday to check a mare for IA'ing. and He Palpated him and said, Nope. Needs surgery. They were hoping to keep him a stallion as His sire, Died last summer, Thats another story. He's having surgery done.
Poor Pistol.

I think you all have to understand you can't completely rule out research just because you have seen something or experienced it personally too. Science has been verified that is a fact there is something to it or we wouldn't bother with testing for things like HYPP HERDA etc... there wouldn't be a reason too because sciene wouldn't have verified that it was a FACT. Now noone is saying there isn't the rare case of studs dropping after 18months but I wouldn't wait after that myself no matter how nice it was too much pain to deal with a colt that long on a long shot the odds are not with you and there are too many nice colts w/great papers out there with both hanging at birth like they should be. Im not trying to start further fighting with either side but there is a middle ground and just because you are "older" doesn't mean you can't read or study science and just because you are younger doesn't mean you can't listen to other people. I don't think we need to make specific unsolicited negative comments about the quality of each others horses though. Just my opinion.