Nice debate topic - what will you do to win?

i'm with you guys. Although this year I watched a wondered ApHc Gelding trip/ fall ( no distinguishable reason) then come up funky during an eq. pattern last fall his rider/owner immediately stopped him, jumped off and yelled for her trainer to come check him. He walked out sound but they immediately took him back to the barn unsaddled him and put his up and didn't show him any more that weekend. i felt so bad for her owner she ws terrified.

But on the things ppl with do. I had my former trainer tell me I should put weighted shoes on my ApHC gelding to give him some extra lift for saddleseat. He is a exceptional saddleseat horse. Needless to say I laughed at her and said his regular steel shoes make him lift high enough no thanks.

I have to say I ahve done all the riding training starting of my saddleseat/ hus horse and I don't hire ppl to ride or show for me even with classes I hate. Although i threatened this year to have my trainer show my gelding in hunter in hand he is a jerk for me, he bucks or bites me.

But I have also seen the grab and jerk on the face then the show princess shows up gets on and wins. There is no reason. My opinion is get out here and sweat it out with the rest off us.

So are you saying injecting a horse is always wrong? I agree that many horses are pushed way too hard, especially at a young age. This is certainly the case with Splash, he was pushed way to hard, as a young horse, before I owned him. Because of that he had arthritis in his hocks at age 6.

But.... many performance horses if used long enough are eventually going to have some wear and tear. Are you saying the moment they need injecting they should be retired? If that is the case I disagree. Injections can reduce wear and tear on the joints and keep them comfortable. When I bought Splash, I had people telling me not to inject him, so I waited too long. If I had started earlier, his hocks would be in better shape now than they are.

I have Splash injected about every 5 months (that's as long as I can stretch it and have him stay comfortable) to keep him sound and comfortable (yes he is sound as long as he's injected). I am very careful about how much I rope or ride him, but he is a working horse who *wants* to work. When I warm him up he tries to go into the box and on the first few steers he squeels because he's so excited to be roping. He wouldn't be happy not working cows, so that's what he does.

And no, I would not do anything to my horse that I felt was detrimental to him physically or mentally just to ride or win.

I am amazed to hear about these injections etc that horses *need* I used to run 3 barrel horses at one time <normally just 2> and none of mine ever had any joint supplements or injections in all the years I ran them.

My horses didn't just run barrels they did keyhole, barrel, polebending.flag race,can race, bag pickup, quad barrels, straight barrels all at the same show on the same day. Some shows even had team penning at the end of the show. Yet none of my horses ever walked a lame step or needed any kind of joint supplement or injections. I know ssfarm2 her daughter ran side by side with me at shows and her horses never needed them either.

I have to wonder why horses such as ours seemed to be just fine without all the added supplements and medical injections? If I had only ran one horse you could say I was lucky but I always ran 2 at every show and for awhile ran 3. I also used those same horses during the week for polo trail riding etc.

We've had the same experience as you, our rope horses have been sound into their late teens and 20's with no injections, but they weren't over used as young horses. We started roping on them between age 5 and 10 (we won't rope on any horse younger than 5). All of these horses that stayed sound, roped hard, showed, and traveled alot. One of them is the horse in my signature he's 16 in that picture and right now at age 20 is 100% sound. He's never had a joint injection and the only supplement he has ever been on is MSM.

Soundness wise, of course this is not the case for Splash. When I did the pre-purchase exam on him at age 6 he already had severe arthritis is his hocks. It's from being overused by a trainer who chose to put the miles on her client's horses rather than her horses. Splash started roping at age 2 and from age 3 to age 6 he was roping 5 days a week. That's way too much for a young horse. Fortunately, when I bought him, the overuse stopped, but the damage was already done. In addition to the injections, there are a lot of other things I do to help him stay sound, chiropractic, massage therapy and when I ride him I am always trying to avoid unecessary pressure on his hocks.

If Splash had been born in a time when there were no injections or supplements, he would not be doing anything now. Since he's a gelding he would probably have ended up in a slaughter house long ago or forgotten in someone's pasture.

Because it increases the usefullness and comfort of horses, especially geldings, that would otherwise work in pain or not work at all, I'm thankfull for the injections and supplements we have now. I don't believe that the injections and supplements are the problem, I believe that the problem, whether it be halter or performance, is starting and pushing horses too young. The pressure put on young horses occured long before we had these options to help our horses stay sound. There are people who abuse them, but I feel they are more of a good thing than bad.

One of the horses I ran in the above mentioned classes i bought off the race track, he had been raced for 5 years. I guess he is a rarity in the fact he was never pin fired or made unsound after such a career.

I know race horses are pushed early, way too early IMHO. I had bought a bay stallion before Hooch and he had his legs pin fired, I ended up gelding him and selling him as a nice trail horse.

Pushing horses is wrong that i will agree with.

I know a race horse trainer (QH) who says pretty much all of them are crippled. That is the main reason I do not support horse racing. Won't go to them and won't own a race horse. They use them up and throw them away, which in my opinion is wrong.

My WP mare, came off the track at age 4 and was totally sound, but she also wasn't very fast and didn't want to go anywhere, so that's probably why she was sound.

LOL ya Hooch was a horse they used to pace the others in the barn? something like that anyway. He was fast enough to be a great barrel racer and sound in his body and mind. He would walk into the ring like a WP horse run his tail off then walk back out like a bored horse.

Hios racing career was 5 or 6 years if I remember correctly, when i bought him he was like 7 or 8 and i trained him then raced him for another 6 years I think before selling him to a family with a teen who loved him. He ended up being passed around teaching other young kids to feel confident which made me happy and glad I had bought him to begin with. Alot of people got to benefit from a really nice ex race horse.

And it's not just limited to one discipline - it's all of them. How many of us have been at shows and seen these 2-year old WP horses being loped, spurred, etc. in a circle for more than two hours... much less people actually posting pictures of the horse being ridden before it's even two - just boggles my mind.

I have to put my two cents in.
I know there are a lot of crippled race horses. I also know there are a lot of crippled jumpers, cutters, ropers, barrel horses, reiners and just about any other discipline I can think of. Most race horses are retired before they have serious issues. I know of some that were too slow to get hurt (its hard to get hurt loping in a straight line). I know others that were so fast they hurt themselves and had to change jobs so they didn't get crippled.

At this moment we have a now 7yo gelding that ran through his 5yo year that is in barrel training, his feet couldn't handle the track anymore but he is GREAT in an arena. The same girl has another 7yo off the track - both of these horses were winners with ROMs - they weren't slow. Another barrel person I know has 2 mares off the track, top AAA multiple winners that have been running around cans for the past 5 years. We have a 4yo filly that is now in a broodmare band because she fell as a weanling and her shoulders are at different heights - she still earned her ROM on the track and is "riding sound". I don't think she could run barrels but that is only because of her shoulders which happened long before her race career (she likes straight lines and big turns).

I think its very easy to say, "we're not as bad as that so we're good".
I will state again "Every discipline has bad apples". The point is to do what you know is right and what is best for your horses! Every discipline has the little "tricks" - some aren't detrimental, some are - as owners we have to decide what is best for our horses and go from there.

Oh well, that is my rant...I just have problems with statements like "they are nearly all crippled"...ugh...

The statement that they are all crippled, wasn't my statement it was a race horse trainers statement. He actually said this to me last Saturday. I realize that is an exageration and not all race horses are crippled, heck as I mentioned I owned one that came off the track and was sound. But I know that a lot of them are crippled. I have a friend who has one or two race horses each year. She's tried to get my husband to buy them and make them into rope horses when they are done racing, but if they are good enough to stay on the track for any length of time, they have issues, and won't hold up in the roping pen.

I totally agree with you that there are bad apples in all disciplines, whether it is roping, WP, Halter, dressage or racing. I think that a big problem in the equine world as a whole, is the value we put on the performance of young horses.

You saw where it said Unwanted horse over run in kentucky. Well It's mainly crippled race horses. I have a friend that runs TBs. He is given horses all the time trying to make them sound again. Cracks, chips, bowed tendons, tears, it's sad to see these young horses ruined. Truck loads of them. I think the key word here in all areas of horses are YOUNG! We expect to much from these young horses. We are in a hurry. Hurry grow up, hurry Preform, hurry win. Im guilty of this just, like the rest of you. We have to keep up with the times. But to what avail? In the halter horses. How many horses shown as weanlings and yearlings (Winning Horses) show as adult horses? On average. Western pleasure horses, like it was said, started to young, to much expected of them. Speed events, Jumping, dressage all of it. Guess, we are back to what will you do to win?

We ran barrel horses 3x weekly from Memorial Day - til Labor Day as well as rope horses... never used any supplement, to increase their drive or ability to work. But I have to agree with the lube injections if needed to release pain in deteriorating joints with use and age. I just don't agree with steriods in halter horses, or the newest of snake venom in racing...

just my thoughts?

Snake venom that is interesting.... I know there is a snail venom that is being considered for pain control in humans very powerful stuff .

Goodness gracious, snake and snail venoms.

If we're paying $3.00 per judge per horse for drug testing, wonder if AQHA will ever be able to keep up with the use of different whatever they're using that day of the month?

I've heard so many horror stories about people buying halter horses from top trainers, 30 days later, the horses literally falling apart, some even dying. Kind of makes me rethink about who I'd buy a horse from, ya know. In fact, it's down right scarey.

Here's more info on that Snake Venom ....

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070218/SPORTS/702180350

I think if I ever bought a horse that's being shown at the time, I'd get a vet to pull blood and do all sorts of random testing, kind of like a regular vet check, but not just hocks, etc... but to test for drugs... GAWD!

Course the only thing I'll be buying is flat out broodmares... I think I'll start making it a habit not to buy anything that isn't already pregnant.

I know when we bought Cool up at the World Sale, she was coming 3 then. I couldn't get her in foal for nothing her 3-year old year, and she lost oh, I don't know, about 50-75 pounds after she got here. And you guys know me, goodness gracious, wasn't like I wasn't feeding her right, plus she'd been at a "halter-fitter" barn.

I think something was definitely going on with that deal.

We are looking at buying a practice horse for my hubby right now. In the past, as part of the pre-purchase exam, I have had blood pulled but not tested. I had the vet hold it for 30 to 60 days, in case something came up with the horse that seemed suspicious.

We never had any problems, so we never had any of the blood drawn tested. But, before we started shopping this time, we decided that, from now on, we are going to have any horse we purchase drug tested for tranquilizers and pain killers.

We are looking at a very reasonably priced roan mare tomorrow, I hope she is a good fit.

Sounds like a heck of a mare, Roperchick. But I hear ya... I'm to the point of not trusting anybody anymore...unless I absolutely know somebody....jeesh!