Nice debate topic - what will you do to win?

Me and my bud up in Missouri have been talking about this a lot seems like. Most of mine stems from when some people came to see Scamp for the dude up in Colorado. For halter, it's sort of one of those things that I know it happens, but to actually hear it and then see it taken so lightly was what blew my mind.

In my friend's case, with Missouri Foxtrotters, she was telling me that some of the walking horse and foxtrotter people were actually putting a nail up in the horse's withers to get some kind of gait, which that literally floored me. And DQPs can't check that, because legally they can only check from the knee down.

I've seen performance horses literally kept together by an injection of legend, cortisone, whatever.

All for the sake of what? A freaking ribbon, a title, bragging rights? At what point, do horse owners, say that's enough?

We lost a lot of well-known quarter horses this past year, and truthfully, probably because of the way they'd been handled previously and "cared for" was most likely the cause. Also one of the reasons you'll never see one of my horses at a halter horse trainer's... huh-uh, ain't happening!

I'm of the opinion that my horses are exactly that, sure I like the grand and reserve, but I won't push a horse to the point of never going outside, force-feeding them, etc... I make sure they still stay a horse, not a toy. One reason why you'll probably never see me show at the World. I'll never EVER push a horse that hard, or inject them, etc. to be able to wear a top ten jacket - just ain't happening!

You guys have heard me before say that long time ago, I listened to a halter trainer, and almost ruined Kid...when you're up at the vet's office, your horse is having tons of X-rays done, and getting shaved to receive Legend shots, at some point, you sit down and realize that you've done this yourself - wasn't the horse's fault, you did it. That did it for me. I took him out of the round pen, quit backing him up hills, lowered his heels slowly, and got a gosh-darned golfcart! Since then, not one bobble or mis-step.

What will I do to win? Lots of elbow grease on the haircoats, good consistent feed without a bunch of additives, good work-outs, and lots of turn-out time. When I'm working horses, I watch them like a hawk - if I see something amiss, then I change it. Mostly, I watch their eye and actually listen to the horse - let them tell me how they're coming. If I'm pushing too hard, I'll back off; if I'm not pushing enough, then I'll change that, too. If I see they need some time off, then they get time off - the heckie pooh with the upcoming show. If I see too much weight, back that off, etc. and my poor farrier, I'm literally leaning over the top of him when he's doing the horses.

Now, here's something even funnier. Because Rick was a roper and because I've always doing the fitting and working; he rides... well, he's changed - he's gotten danged near obsessed with Scamp. You know how horses like to try and commit suicide, and Rick's just scared to death that something will happen to Scamp. So yesterday he comes home, everybody was out... I mean, everybody. Put Jazz and Scamp out in the big pasture for some down time and romp and play... was actually going to leave everybody out during the night... Rick came in.... "YOU CAN'T LEAVE SCAMP OUT ALL NIGHT SOMETHING MIGHT HAPPEN!" At the top of his lungs, mind ya. I'm like, okay, fine... GAWD! All the way back up to the house after putting Kid, Jazz and Scamp up... I get this, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU HAVE THERE AND YOU'RE JUST LETTING HIM OUT IN THE PASTURE? I'm thinking, okay, you're totally losing it there, dude!

Sorry this was so long... but what's your feelings on the subject?

Wow, what a deep subject!! And amen to everything you said!! When I was a youth rider, I rode Arabians, but stabled first in a Tennessee Walker barn and then a Saddlebred barn and I saw alot of what went on there, but at the time, I didn't really understand how wrong it was. I thought that was just the way it went. And I think that is the mindset of alot of people immersed in that side of horses. They just don't have alot of perspective, and sometimes they need to step away for a while to see the whole picture, if you know what I mean.
What would I do to win? Well, lots of elbow grease! My daughter and I are meticulous about showring preparation and even if she doesn't win, we know we brought the cleanest shiniest horse into the ring! She rides every chance she gets and is always striving to perfect something, not just mess around on horseback. I want to be proud of how I achieve my results. It's not just what you achieve, but how much you put into what you achieve.

i agree with you 100%.I look at my horses and they tell me what i need to do extra.Which so far they all look great on there exercise and feed program,they get turned out in field everyday unless its throwing it down,

I know someone over here who thinks there horse is Halter weight when really its just fat not any muscle definiton at all,just fat.They even back up there horse loads to build up there back end,which in my opinion is wrong.Horses wernt ment to walk backwards .Surely its not good for the horse.Yes i agree that you need a strict program to build muscle for the Halter and for any performance class for that matter.You wouldnt expect an athelete(sp)of any sort to run a race without training first.But all this is for a ribbon HUH!!.My horses welfare and happiness comes first not some ribbon or show points.

I'm also of the opinion that if my horse doesn't place above somebody that's putting stuff in 'em that they shouldn't be doing, then so be it... at least my horse will be alive in two years, four years, six years, ten years, etc., and will be sound!

Some people, to me, have way too much money, have lost their common sense, and only want the recognition. I don't care if they own the best stallion in the world, I'm not breeding to it, if I know they're doing things unfair or hurting their horses... just flat won't do it.

To go in to a halter barn, and see weanlings and yearlings with their front legs wrapped because they've blown them out, or have already had surgery, and they're loading one up to take to surgery... you know, I really want to go up, knock the heck out of the side of their head... and say DUH! I feel so sorry for those horses!

As far as walking horses, when I had USDA's contract, we did a lot of hearings on that mess, and I remember one Judge asked me my opinion when we had a break... I was like fine the crap out of him and blah, blah, blah. He says, very quietly... "You own horses, too, don't you?" Wrong thing to ask me! WHEW! Plus, I have two friends that are DQP's... one friend, once they find out she's at a show, people actually leave... HA!

I think Anita told me, too, at the world for walking horses this past year, they didn't even do a grand and reserve, something about because so many of the horses had failed the test... have to get more details on that, though.

I think you must also understand while you talk about some of the things you have said a top level performance horse in cutting/reining/roping or jumping is going to need something like legend during their career if they are competing there is no 2 ways about it. If they are competing and you don't use it it is irresponsible and you aren't maintaining your horse to the best of your ability. Now Im not talking about monthly injections (those horses need a break) but these animals are performing in a demanding sport. This drug helps to keep the animal comfortable and save the wear and tear on the joints. Now with Peppy a stallion who has been to the world show and placed decently he has been injected with legend 3 xs he is 10yrs old so in no way a "maintence" drug. Something to help when he was starting to act up in the box, or not act like himself easy enough to tell when something isn't right with Peppy. Then we take him to our vet for a full work up after the injection it is time for a break....

We gallop our horses on an as needed basis (some need daily, some need every other day off, etc). We also swim some of them. I prefer to refrain from swimming 2yos just because they need concusion to help their bone density. Right now my 2yo does get to go swim about once every two weeks just to keep him from getting bored and he has feet that are making my farrier scream! They get turned out on a supervised basis (about 30 mins - an hour depending on the horse). Everyone gets put on the walker every day just for some down time. Some LOVE the walker, others HATE it. We have a 3yo right now that we have told the owner that it is highly probable that we may need to give him adequan and time off in the future (he had 10 starts at 2 with a different trainer). The owner is perfectly fine with the horse being a horse and we will just go from there with it (the gelding did get 4 months off turned out on pasture to just relax). We don't give many extras to the horses. They are on a 14% pellet feed, a little bit of corn chops, alfalfa and coastal hay. They do get electrolites when they are working and sometimes 747 if they need a little boost. No steroids or drugs. If a horse needs bute, they get it and get turned out unless it is for something that needs treatment then it gets taken care of and then a break. If a horse gets sour we usually turn them out or put them under a stock saddle and give them a new job for a while.

We do wrap legs and mud legs and pack feet. We do that all the time though as a preventative not as a cure. I know that if I go work out I'd like my legs to be cooled down so I do the same for the guys in training. My gelding has pancakes for feet, we trim them and pack them and he has Easyrides (you can tell he loves those buggers). So far his feet haven't hurt him and I'd like to keep it that way. If his feet do hurt he will get a new job. If a horse has heat somewhere we figure out why and get it fixed but our guys don't get anything "extra". I have serious issues with that!

Kidd. How many times have you seen horses jugged! The race horse I think is one of the most abused horse. I was shocked when I worked a track one summer. I think so much goes on to win in the show ring, but the race industry is a sight to behold.

Putting a more know person on the end of you lead, or on their back. I guess IF I had the money to blow, I would. BUT of corse I don't have to worry about that! Hee Hee. BUT this trainer would have to be honest and leave all the junk out of the horse.

OH, corse winning on your own, is much more rewarding. Losing, is more rewarding if you did it on your own and you feel it was a peronal best or you met a goal you set for yourself. IF I were paying someone and they lost with a terrible showing then I might be more upset.

Yep, if I had the money to blow, Id do it. But doesn't seem I have to worry about that anytime soon. hee hee

Triple J - It is all about what is in the jug. I've seen horses saved with jugs and I've seen horses ruined with them. Many trainers have "special" jugs. We don't do that. Jugs can be beneficial if you have horses that have issue with fluids. Race tracks have some bad sides but these horses get more money and time spent with them than nearly any other discipline!

I will agree that many things that are done aren't good. There are also a TON of things that are done well.

A trainer does not make money getting the day rate and trainers do not want horses in the barn that aren't going to run well. They send them back to owners. Owners do not benefit unless the horses run well. When you have an over zealous owner combined with a ruthless trainer you get problems. However, accidents happen and if you are in a race freak things can happen, this is a demanding sport! Race accidents are splattered all over the headlines...I have yet to see a halter horse that died at a show on the news but I know it has happened!

I have said all along that each discipline has its own bad apples. From what I have been able to find out though, race tracks are the ONLY places that are RELIGIOUS about testing! ALSO, at race tracks you are not allowed on the backside with a needle OR a syringe that can have a needle attached! VETS are the only parties that can give ANYTHING on track grounds. I will guarantee that if you were to run a test on the top three in every class at every AQHA show you'd find a heck of a lot more junk than you do on the track...

***Disclaimer - not trying to be witchy this just hits a nerve with me...I'll be quiet now

Also, an added note: TBs are very different than QHs at the track, it is a completely different mentality...

It was Quarters, However I have been in the barns on TBs too. I understand that It touched a nerve. Sorry if it did. I do know all about Jugging , Thats why I mentioned it. However, Id have to stand with my orginal post, A whole lot of it goes on, and Id have to say, More harm to the race horse then the show end. Sorry, Its just what I was a witness to.

But I am glad to hear that you are a honest ! There needs to be more of you and us in all parts of the race/show horse industry.

Kidd: "When you have an over zealous owner combined with a ruthless trainer you get problems."

You said it all right there, just in that one sentence. Then, you have your amateurs that are total idgits.

Lynn, I get your point totally, and I know you guys take care of your horses; however, how many cutting, reining, barrel racing, roping horses out there are literally "kept together" with these injections. Now that's what gets me. At what point, do people stop and realize that they're the one who's doing that to the horse... whether it's the training, or just the daily grind.

The problem is in every discipline, unfortunately. Shooting up one to keep it together, or to pump it up more, or ... and the list goes on and on.

Probably a good thing I'm not a vet... I don't think I'd make very much money... HA!

First off: Lynn-agreed. You put it perfectly and eloquently!

Saw a girl today who was in my WP class. Trainer rode the entire day, yanked as hard as possible at this poor horse's mouth, literally drove him into the ground. Maybe 30 seconds before her class, the girl appears, beautifully dressed, hops on, wins 2nd.

Maybe I'm confused, but I'd rather LOSE on a horse that I *know* and have put *time* and my OWN EFFORTS into, than WIN on some abused trainer's cast off.

Sorry, hope I didn't offend anyone. Stong feelings.

Ooooh, and Tara: there's 2 yellow halter mares stalled across from us. Gorgeous...one's called Voluptuous Gold (sp?). Anyways, I think Miracle could take them any day, easy

I agree with you whole heartedly, if I have to pay someone to train and fit my horse then have me just show up to pop on it or take the lead then that will be the day i stop showing.

How can you possibley be proud of something you didn't work for? Now this is how I feel, if you have enough money to pay a trainer to do all of that for you and that is what makes you happy then so be it. For me, doing all of the fitting of my halter horses makes me happy and helps to keep me sane LOL

I feel very proud whether they win or not as long as they do what i have trained them to do.

Hey see if you can get a picture of those pretty mares! I would love to see what they look like.

This is a really great topic...

To win, I will work my hardest to make my horse the best *THEY CAN BE*. Not every horse is world champion quality, and I'm not going to pump a nice horse up and ruin him to make him that world champion. My goal when I have a horse, even a halter horse, is to have a nice, balanced, structurally correct, well manered, beautiful individual. I work my horses how they need to be worked individually, hard enough to get results, but I never put anything in front of them they can't handle. I want each of my horses to reach their full potential, wether that means being a nice little 4H horse or a world champion. I would never jeapordize my horses health to win a ribbon, because at the end of the day, a ribbon is just a ribbon and a title is just a title, but out there in the barn, you have a living breathing animal that probably loves you more than anything, trusts you and can depend on you, that means more than a ribbon ever could.

I also agree on the if somebody's paying a trainer and they hop on 5 minutes before a class and do whatever. I think they're missing the whole point of horse ownership - the whole point!

I know one of the hardest things that I had to endure and get my mind straight on was.... in life, you make your own personal goals for yourself. Once you hit them, you continue on to the next; however, when you mix it up with a horse, and it's a take two to accomplish your goal, that used to just blow my mind. Now, I get it! Took me years though! I used to get so frustrated!

I think Silverbuckles hit it - some horses are destined to do great things in the right hands, some aren't... some can only reach a certain point - same with humans and any animal.

It takes an awful lot of money and time to promote a horse... an awful lot of money... whew!

I think you also have to consider what will you do to have a stallion? That is a question that goes hand in hand with this topic. I think this question has to be answered when you question what someone is willing to do win. I have a stallion I don't show not because I can't show a horse but because I can't rope and that is the discipline my horse excels in. Should I sell my stallion or should I find the best person to promote my stallion so that I can have a great stallion who can go out there and be all that he can be or I could have yet another mediocore stud w/o the credential to back up his very nice pedigree. I don't think that is in his best interest. So I went out found someone who could get the job done and made sacrifices in my personal life daily to make my horse his best. He will be retired this year and will be living his life in luxury and will have the credentials that not many horses will be able to claim. If you stand a stallion you should have a record to support their ability or geld them there are too many stallions in this world already. I find it interesting people talk about if I can't show them myself why would I bother well sometimes it is very rewarding to see your horse exel in the show ring even if you aren't the one riding it. Is it not rewarding to watch your child play sports? We are just as proud when we get to see Peppy show and win a big class.

I think Lynn made a great point about trainers riding horses, something along that line of topic. Lynn works hard herself to promote Peppy, took the time to find a trustworthy person to ride him, and she has carefully watched over his career. But, that is a totally different thing from owning a horse, never working on it, and jumping on right before the class so your trainer has had plenty of time to make your horse perfect as can be. That kind of frustrates me, and I do think it takes all the ownership out of actually owning a horse.

About having a stallion, you have to be able to make the financial commitment too, because in the breeding world, you work to win breedings for lack of a better way of putting it. A lot of people don't truly understand just how expensive it is to put your stallion in a magazine, get him paid into futurities, etc. Then you think about the big shots who have pay outs for babies that win world/res. world and top tens at the world show. You need to be able to make the financial, time, and blood sweat tear commitment in order to win and get anywhere with a stallion.

On the stallion topic, so a lot of people don't get the wrong idea, there's about 3 options there with a stallion. What Lynn is doing with her stallion is totally correct.

My feelings on it, because I've been on both sides of the street, a stallion that had been injured before I bought him, and breeding him versus going through a breeding season with a friend of mine where she bred over 60 mares in one season - that's live cover, mind ya versus going through the shipping or no shipping, having a vet here continously.

I know the year that I put Kid in both the Paint Journal and the Quarter Journal, the incentive funds, paying for a guy to actually do the ad, etc., I dropped right at $4,000 in a month. It was a total waste of money!

Then I went through the deal of training him to the dummy, getting the vet to come out and collect and AI all the mares that year. That's seeing the vet every other day, tons and tons of ultrasounds and one whale of a vet bill.

After seeing my friend going through a horrendous breeding season, constantly on the phone till after midnight, and as early as 6:00 in the morning, that was something I didn't even want to go through.

Have seen people like Clu Heir's owners just almost totally stop on the breeding because they have no life whatsoever.

Thus, I decided not to advertise in the Journals, to get lost in the sea of horses, and prove his babies. I do not, under any circumstances, whatsoever, want to breed 30-50 mares a year, and especially don't want to mess with the shipping.

At some point, we'll get up to five really good broodmares, that we'll pick the best and show and then sell the rest... Rick wants to get up to ten, but five sounds better to me. If his babies do well, that'll sell the breedings, but I absolutely refuse to breed a bunch of danged mares, where I see the vet more than my family. Much less having to deal with mare owners who have not a freaking clue of what's going on. Example: Have a mare owner back up to a pen, because the mare's barely halter broke, and the baby on her isn't, and go to the back of the trailer, to open it up, and they're pulling the mare and the baby through the gosh-darned escape door of the trailer - I kid you not! Or to have a mare blow up in the stocks or having to get someone to hold the danged mare when you breed her because she doesn't tie, or to get a phone call at 11:00 at night, begging you to ship semen the next day... the stories go on and on.

This stallion business is definitely a personal preference thing. Looking back, I wish I would've done it a lot more differently, would've saved a ton of money. And if I have a colt that hits the ground that would prove to be an awesome stallion for the quarter business, then by all means, somebody else needs to buy him to go through those horrendous breeding seasons - cuz it ain't gonna be me! HA!

Who said if you can't show them yourself? or are you talking about people in general.

I know that I sent my stallion out to finish his training and be shown because I didn't want to ride WP. I ended up having to when I found out what the guy had done to my stallion.

But hell if you don't want to rope/WP/etc with a stallion it is smart to have a trainer do it. Like you said there are enough medicore stallions out there you need the extra something IE awards points exposure showing does for them to get peoples attention.

Stallions are a whole different world and a different way of getting things done certainly applies to them.

SilverBuckleHorses wrote:

I think Lynn made a great point about trainers riding horses, something along that line of topic. Lynn works hard herself to promote Peppy, took the time to find a trustworthy person to ride him, and she has carefully watched over his career. But, that is a totally different thing from owning a horse, never working on it, and jumping on right before the class so your trainer has had plenty of time to make your horse perfect as can be. That kind of frustrates me, and I do think it takes all the ownership out of actually owning a horse.

I hear that! so many people drive up to the barn maybe once a month from Greenwich and New York to ride their horse and then its just "well see you at the next show"

I hate that one person from our barn just went down to a circuit in arizona won the whole damn thing and he sees his horse maybe three times a year besides at horse shows

it is just an outing for people -- they really only care about winning those are the people who think a horse needs injections every two weeks for 'mantience' thats why good trainers are always in need! haha its hard not to fleece a person when they dont bat an eye at paying $75 for a banding job

as for keeping a horse together with injections I want to point out a horse that was shown at the world show this year Zipp* L*D yea didn;t place in the trail because he was LAME he was lame almost the entire show but they kept going becuase they wanted to get the all-time highest points or whatever that iritated me becuase the horse was hurting and the people were all being congratulated for his career -- how many of those years did this horse have to be injected so he could survive the season?

sorry for the rant

Actually, he already had the highest number of points ever earned, before the show-5,695.
And it is just speculation that he was lame for "the entire show"... none of us was there to prove it, and neither the owner nor the trainers made comments. I'm with ya on the injections thing-let them retire, they've earned it. However, this horse had an extrodinary career, and deserved every accolade he was lauded at the world show; the speculation that he's been injected for however many years is just that-speculation.

Exactly my point... Good Lord, 5,000 plus points... now that is just getting way out of hand. All for the glory and the prize. Poor horse... you watch, they've got the prize, now they'll sell him....once everybody finds out how he's been held together, will be totally worthless... and I'm assuming this is a gelding, which is even worse. Poor guy!

No, he's retired. He was a great show horse and I think he was 20 years old when he was retired at the last world show. Personally, I think it's a great achievement and awesome that he showed such longevity in the show ring. He was the "winningest" AQHA horse for at least several years before he was retired (it had been on his journal ads as long as I've been receiving the magazine, and has been owned by the same girl for as long as I've known about him), so I don't think they continued showing just for the glory of winning. I think he was a special horse that loved to show. But JMO on the matter of that specific horse!

I agree though that there might be too much reliance on supplements, injections, etc. these days... to an extent. It kills me when I hear about Junior horses that need monthly injections, etc. to keep them sound. I don't mind it so much in the Senior horses because they have been at it for a while, and they have a hard job regardless of discipline. Being a competitive show horse is not an easy life! Why not do what you can to make your horse more comfortable?

Zippo LTD was shown by a family here in Kentucky back in the First to middle part of the 90s. He was sort of ill natured. He went to 3 trainers that I know of here. They did a bunch of showing on him, Open, Am. and youth, I cant tell you how many classes in a day. That is back when I.F. points were worth chasing. He was tuff then in Showmenship, Trail, and Western riding. Lord, I thought back then, POOR HORSE.

I agree there is alot of makeup out there in the show ring, coverup is good for the ribbons/titles but what do you have after a year or two... a broken down show horse.... I also agree the most joyful pay-off is for those of us who bust our butts with the all natural elbow grease! And in a year or two our horses are still standing sound! i love going into the ring and taking away Grand against a trainers horse that is standing there with every additive and drug possible....