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 Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT

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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 9:41 pm

My colt was diagnosed with ESPM.. Now, you cannot confirm this with out biopsy and this has not been done.. You cannot do this until they are at least a year old.. So, until then I will treat him as though this is true.. Thank you 7C for all the great research on this for me..

Here is what happened.. He was a little sluggish one day. The next day it was really hot and he was laying out in the hot sun and could not get up. It took three people to get him on his feet and in to the barn. The vet came out and checked him out and left without taking blood.. The next morning he was down in his stall and we could not get him up at all. All his muscles were stiff and he just could not get his feet under him to get up. After about 3 hours he got up on his own and off to the hospital he went. They finally did blood work.. It doesn't look good at all. They treated for ESPM.. Problem is they get set on one thing and do not think about others.. And, this cannot be confirmed with out a biopsy period.. And, they admitted they had never seen this in such a young horse.. At this point he is walking slow, not steady on his feet (swaying back and forth) and not one once of energy..

I just have a gut feeling this is not the problem.. I think the heat and the introduction to pasture has something to do with it. He was fine until he got out on pasture in the sun.. I have already ruled out sprays etc. I had them out on short grass for the first week to get them used to it. Then I opened the big pasture that has nice luch grass on it. This is when this started.. They are only out from 7 to 5 during the day.. He started slowing down right after they got on the better grass.. We are out so have noting to contaminate it. And, no one esle has this problem..

Any thoughts on this? This has never happened to me. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.. I can scan and email the blood work results if you want to see them. They freaked me out.. Normal CPK is between 20-500. Chads was +130,000. LDH normal level is 150-450. Chads is 20,000. AST (SGOT) normal is 18-57. His was 19,290. Everything else that was out of range was not that far out..

Now keep in mind this was done soon after we got him up and he was taken from his mother, loaded in the trailer and off to a strange place..

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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 9:47 pm

this is interesting reading
http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2000/winter/pesm.shtml
I will see if I can find out some more tonight...
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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 9:54 pm

Thank you for the link. I got that one from 7C.. I am thinking this is not what he has. She sent me a bunch of them.. He does has some signs of it.. I am thinking there might be something different going on with him? I have cameras in my barn and I do not think he is laying down at all unless he does it after the lights go out.. Today when I let him out he just wondered around a little and walked with his head down.. He is eating and drinking.. he acts like he is exausted.

I am concerned he might be affraid to lay down since he could not get up.. I guess when he gets tired of being on his feet he will. But, I think it is possble he has been on his feet since Thrusday..

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Kidd Kuhlmann

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 9:55 pm

This sounds silly but...
Is he sweating???

If he is sweating, is he sweating enough? That is how our heat stroke horses act...
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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 10:02 pm

That elevated CPK result is showing muscle damage... I don't know why it would do that with heat stroke or heat exhaustion.... that is my concern with that elevated lab result... trying to figure out a reason for that to be elevated in a youngster there aren't many good explainations...could he have fallen and hurt himself?
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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 10:10 pm

keep him off the grass and see if he improves... if the addition of the carbs in the grass (tasted so good he ate too many) maybe threw him into this... maybe keeping him off the grass will get him better and a biopsy is the way to go to rule it out. That article made it sound like if this is the case it is totally controllable with diet and exercise regieme...

Best wishes for the little guy I hope it is something simple and he is feeling fresh and frisky in the am and all this worry is for nothing!
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Cindy

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 11:18 pm

Wow! Those are really high levels! Are they 100% sure it's ESPM? Do they get stiff muscles? I always thought the muscles deteriorated???
I hope they get it under control and I'll keep him in my thoughts and prayers. I love you

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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 20th 2007, 11:36 pm

He was sweating.. And he is off the grass now. I have him in the barn.. And a diet that would work for this if that is the case. It is diet controled.. The carbs in the grass sound interesting and would explain why this happened once he was out on it.. No problems before then.

This is great stuff you are giving me. I felt the hot sun and grass were the cause.. He has been on alfalfa, LMF and Oats since he was born. It wasn't until he got on the lush grass and it was hot that this started.. He was out on a short field and had no problem with that.

I think the carbs in the grass could be leading some where study He was sweating. That was one of my first thoughts. I thought about electrolyte troubles.. That still sticks in my mind.. I do not know the signs of that. Could have been a combination of both.

I sold a colt to a gal in Texas and she mentioned a problem some horses there have that do not sweat.. She said you can tell when it is happening and you take care of it. She never gave me any detail about what all that was and I am out od touch with her..

He is still very sluggish and depressed.. Some of that may be the fact mommy is not in the stall with him. I do not like the fact he is not moving around a lot..

If it was a carb over load or too much heat. Do you know what I can do for that scratch

I do have my high fat, low starch and card diet ready to start tomorrow.. No grain. I have great minerals and vitamins to feed with this.. And, one of the feeds is only 30.00 a bag... OUCH.. At least they do not eat much of that.. I think the poor little guy is affraid to lay down now. He is exausted from being on his feet. I am going to have to force him to walk around..

This used to only happen to draft horses. It is becoming so common in QH that AQHA has donated money for research on it. Also, they have trace it way back to a stallion they are not mentioning. HUM. scratch so much for the HYPP thing.. doggie If he would have been NH this would be easy.. Even though that was not in the past. He is NN..

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stockman

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 9:10 am

Are you sure he didn't come across something poisonous in the pasture? Those elevated levels would be freaking me out!! Do you have a dry lot where he can get out and move around a bit? To me, it would seem he should be able to handle any kind of heat that Oregon could dish out, but lush pasture is another thing. Maybe if he just had way more starch than his system could handle, his body can adjust and work it out. I hope he doesn't founder pale !
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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 11:10 am

I asked the vet about sprays.. We had sprayed the fence lines the day before they went out there.. He said he would have to have gotten way more of that then he could have to poison him. We only spray right under the fence and he does not go near them.

As far a the ESPM goes it cannot be confirmed without a muscle biopsy. He has not had one of those. The elivated levels for muscle damage should return to normal. I will be calling the vet when they open to get the results of the second test after they gave him IV thearapy. And, yes those levels have freaked me out too.. Everything else other then the ones I mentioned were close to normal range. Some just a few points higher and other a few points lower..

This morning he is down again and does not seem to be able to get up. He just looks like he is resting. Bright eyes, no sweating, muscles are not tight and he is not stiff.. The girl who fed this morning said he was hopping around on the ground and his hind end would not come up. He acts like he does not have the strenght to pull himself up. I have him in a stall witha camera on and I am watching him from the house.. He lays out flat then sets up. He is not strugling or trying to get up.

As far as founder goes that is rare in a foal.. He does not stand like that is what is going on either.. He just acts like he is weak.

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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 1:26 pm

what is that other disease GEBA something.... there are so many weird genetic things popping up these days... Im praying for the little guy to get better nothing worse than a little guy feeling sick and feeling helpless to make it better...


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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 1:35 pm

OK hate to be gloom and doom here but since CPK is a test also used to indicate Heart Attack due to the muscle damage if he doesn't start showing improvement maybe this is another thing to consider:


An inherited disorder called glycogen branching enzyme deficiency (GBED) in American Quarter Horses and related breeds that appears to be the cause for many unexplained stillbirths and deaths of young foals was identified by the University of Minnesota's Stephanie Valberg, DVM, PhD, Department of Clinical and Population Sciences, and Jim Mickelson, PhD, associate professor veterinary pathobiology, both in the College of Veterinary Medicine. The disease was found to be an autosomal recessive trait, meaning each normal parent carries one allele that is defective and passes that "mutant" along to the foal, which ends up with a pair of defective alleles and expression of the disease.



This discovery means GBED could be prevented prior to breeding if parents are tested and carriers are not mated. (This type of recessive gene passage is similar to HC/HERDA found in Quarter Horses, but there isn't a genetic test available to identify carriers of HC/HERDA.)



GBED-affected foals are either born dead or are weak at birth with a low body temperature, according to Valberg. With assistance to nurse and intense nurturing, such foals often become stronger and nurse on their own. However, their activity level is typically less than that of healthy foals; they might have flexural deformities of the lower limbs, show a more rapid rate of breathing, and have intermittent seizures or signs easily interpreted as sepsis or infection. Most foals with GBED die suddenly by eight weeks of age due to a fatal drop in blood glucose levels or sudden heart failure. Some foals are euthanized because they become progressively weaker and are unable to rise without assistance.



A new type of equine disease was first suspected when muscle biopsies from a foal at Kansas State University were submitted to Valberg's Neuromuscular Diagnostic Laboratory. She found that this foal--as well as muscles from other affected foals--had a lower-than-expected amount of glycogen (the intracellular storage form of glucose) and an abundance of abnormal polysaccharide that formed both crystalline rods and large globules within the cells. This histopathological picture was very similar to human glycogen storage disease type IV that is due to a deficiency in the glycogen branching enzyme (GBE).



Further biochemical analysis in Mickelson's laboratory revealed that muscle and liver tissues from affected foals contained an unbranched form of polysaccharide, and that little or no GBE activity was present. Glycogen within cells normally exists as a 12-tiered tree-like structure with thousands of branch points that allow for the rapid storage and mobilization of glucose for energy metabolism. The lack of branch points on the glycogen molecule--due to the missing GBE enzyme activity--meant that none of the GBED foal's tissues could efficiently store and metabolize glucose. The lack of available energy from stored glucose in GBED likely affects tissues differently at different times. In the brain it could produce seizures, in the muscles it could produce weakness and contracted tendons, and in the heart it could cause sudden cardiac arrest.



Valberg said DVM/PhD student Tara Ward, working in Mickelson's laboratory, was able to identify the location of the GBE1 gene on horse chromosome 26, and the complete DNA sequence for the region of the GBE1 gene that codes for amino acids in the GBE protein. When the control horse and GBED foal DNA sequences were compared, a single DNA base pair alteration was evident. This GBE1 mutation caused a stop codon for protein synthesis to be inserted very early in the GBE1 mRNA, and meant that GBE protein could not be produced in GBED foals. GBED foals carry two copies (alleles) of the mutant GBE1 gene, and their parents each carried one normal and one mutant GBE1 allele. This pattern of distribution of GBE1 alleles is consistent with an autosomal recessive disease. To date, 12 foals have been identified with GBED, but analysis of their extended pedigrees indicates this is likely only the tip of the iceberg.



The discovery of the equine GBE1 mutation will be published in the July issue of the journal Mammalian Genome, noted Valberg. Work is now ongoing to determine the prevalence of the mutant GBE1 allele in the U.S. Quarter Horse population and to estimate its overall role in foal death and late-term abortion. A DNA-based test for horse breeders to use to determine if mares and stallions are carriers of the GBE1 mutation, and enable them to reduce or eliminate production of GBED foals, will be offered.



Financial support for this research comes from the American Quarter Horse Association, the Minnesota Racing Commission, and the University of Minnesota Equine Center.
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stockman

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 2:00 pm

That GBED sounds like a horrible possibility. It still sounds relatively rare and maybe the vet has not considered it yet. It's true there are so many wierd genetic diseases showing up recently! I wonder why?
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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 4:05 pm

The reaserch I did on GBED said that they die and it happens within days of birth. At that time they knew of one that lived to be two weeks old. Also, they traced that one back to King lines.. None of that in this colt.

This colt is almost 5 months old.. He had no trouble until he got out on the lush grass.. Lynn had mentioned the carbs in grass. This colt was totally normal until about two days out in the grass..

The CPK is down to 62,000 now. That is less then half of what it was. Still way too high though.. Also, he is not trying to get up. No stress. He is eating hay and drinking water.. Seems very content just like he is. We are not trying to force him up either.. Bright eyes, not stiff, no sweating and breathing normal. We rolled him over. He rolled back over on the other side.. No effort, just up and over he went.. We were checking to see if his back legs were stiff and he kicked at up.. When he does try to get up his hind end will not get under him. Almost like he does not know how to get up.. Doesn't seem to bother him. He just lays over for awhile then perks up again.. Seems he doesn't care about getting up at all.. If he did he would try or struggle to do so.. scratch

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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 4:56 pm

could he have gotten injured... I cant help but go back to that and wonder if maybe there was something traumatic with possible spinal cord shock resulting in not being able to use the back end... a kick or fall??? that could cause muscle injury as well leading to CPK elevation?? I thought he might be to old for the GEBD but they did mention they could live to be as old as 8 weeks wasn't sure the age of your colt...
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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 7:26 pm

I have thought about possible injury as well. It could be possible. He does not have any marks on him, no areas he is garding and no bumps. I did not know that an injruy would elivate the muscle enzymes though. The vets never mentioned that.. That makes sense. Also, he was really stressed when they took the blood work. I would assume that and the trying to get up could elivate them as well. And, everthing else in his blood work.

When he tries to get up it looks like his hind end and back legs are not working. Yet, he can kick at you with his back legs and he used his hips to roll himself over. He just went up and over perfectly. No struggle. In fact is was perfect.

He started slowing down a bit on Tues.. Just not quit right.. Wed was the day he was down in the field. Thurs four people could not get him up. After he rested for a bit he popped right up on his own. Then off to the hospital he went.. He was there until Sat. I am sure he has not laid down since Thurs until this morning.

I did talk to another vet. Everything that was done for him is what should have been done.. He did say if there was kidney damage that that would not appear until 10 days after the eppisode. I did go over other things like maybe brian injury. He does not have any of the signs of that..

My biggest fear is this laying down right now. Other wise he acts like a normal horse that is just simply worn out and too tired to get up. The vet told me to make sure and bed him really deep so he does not get sore.

This all seems a mystery to them and they have never heard of this before.. These vets are older and have been around a long time. Not real old but in their early 50's and been treating horses for many years.. The fact neither of them has ever seen this is strange to me. You would think at this stage or the game they would have seen everything.

I have to go back to work tomorrow. I will be worried sick until he gets up. You can not force him so have to wait..

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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 10:52 pm

Well, Chad got up about 6:30 tonight. You are never going to believe this one. I had a hunch along this line but never heard of it before. riding

One of the gals who works for me has a real way with the horses. They love her.. She came out and talked to him, gave him a message and spent some time with him. She has a way with them and, well maybe, they just love her Georgia accent.. cheering

She had a hunch and went down below and brought up the mare and filly that he had been out to pasture with. He popped right up.. YES, got right up when he saw them. The first thing he did was pee. This colt has laid there all day and peed and pooped twice today with out even trying to get up. Just laid there and did it.. pale

The second vet I called told me there was a little test I could do to see if he really could not get up. He said pinch his nose so he cannot breath. He said that will make him mad and if he can he will get up. I tried it.. Well, it made him mad alright. I got a foot in the face and a bloody nose.. He wouldn't get up though.. Shocked

His Mother has been weaning him off for awhile now. And, Colleen said he had been upset about this. He is depressed. Sad

Now my question to the nurses here who had to take all that stuff in college like chemistry, could this depression have elivated his enzymes and caused this whole thing?
study

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 21st 2007, 11:37 pm

This is begining to have a familior ring to it. Back in "95" my mare had a beautiful palomino colt. When he was about 4 months old, he got himself stuck under a lodgepole fence. He struggled and broke his pelvis. We had no choice but to see what would happen. Eventually, he was able to walk/trot/run....but he never grew any bigger than a kid's pony and moved really odd on one hind leg.

I sounds to me like this colt is having pelvic pain. That's how mine behaved.
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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 22nd 2007, 8:37 am

So in the end, he got too much of a good thing, got fixed, then started pouting.

I tell ya, isn't that so much like a guy! I'm just glad he's better...that was about to drive me nutso!
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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 22nd 2007, 9:35 am

When this happened to our weanling filly, After many days of treatment and TLC. We put a round pen out in a grassy part of the yard under 2 shade trees, First she nibbled laying down. But then she ran out of grass, She was more interested in getting up. The footing was perfect for push up on the side that was not as sore (or I should say the side she would at least try to use). She became more interested in what was going on around her. She could see the other horses from the pen and would stand longer and longer. A horse does become depressed. But if all else fails. Grass is a anti-depressent. Im sure he is depressed from being sick, weaned and hurting. If they would only listen when to us when we say, yes your sore, get up and move around and you'll feel better! Bless his little heart hope he is doing better. I love you

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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 22nd 2007, 9:34 pm

Well, it's sure nice to hear that this has happened to someone else. I could not believe it and the vets never even mentioned this as a possiblity.. They could have run me up a tree with cost to find out nothing. scratch

Right now it is too soon for him to see his mother out there.. I plan to wean the filly this weekend. She will be 3.5 months old. She has become more independent from her mother in the field. She just acts like a teenager and does not hang out next to her Mom and talks to the other mares.. riding

I have a two stalls that have a big enough knott hole between them they can see each other and get out to play together.. I think this will really help him. doggie

I did not know that you not only had to be a vet. You had to be a shrink too.. study

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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 23rd 2007, 10:07 pm

RagDoll, We talked about the possibility of trauma here and Lynn said that would really drive up those labs.. He as out on soft area.. No marks that would indicate he got hit hard anywhere.. The worst he could have done is take a hard spill.

My question is, what would be the signs other then the obvious if he did fall out there and fracture his pelvis? Could a horse get kicked (without marks) and fracture a pelvis? How would he walk? Could he walk? I know some small frax that are just painful do not show the real deal when it is fully frax.

I know he went down during the night last night and was able and did get up. Those nice pee spots on his side were a warm welcome today.. This in it's self is a HUGE improvement for him. He does have a very sweet gal with her charming Georgia accent for his personal nurse.. LOL. He loves Colleen and she takes a lot of time to observe and care for him. WHAT A GAL.... cheering She takes him for walks and does a lot on his terms.. Yes, he is getting spoiled.. But, he is easy to get along with and this seems to help him. I told her that she needs to sleep in the barn with him. She is not going for that.. lol!

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7cedars



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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 24th 2007, 7:51 am

Lordy! I'm just glad he's doing better. I know it was driving you crazy. I think the little feller will be all right, and he's a whale of a colt, so he needs to be all right! Whale of a colt!
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Lynn M.

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 24th 2007, 1:01 pm

I know a stable fx of the pelvis in humans is something we just watch and allow them to walk w/o assistance they hurt but don't do much other than pain control... a displaced or unstable fx of the plevis requires pinning or immobility otherwise wouldn't be such a big deal just time and probably limited activity such as turnout with other foals... I personally don't time you necessarily would notice a trauma that caused an injury like that....
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Bluejay

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PostSubject: Re: Need your thoughts on this one.. IMPORTANT   May 24th 2007, 10:28 pm

More trouble now. When he got up after being down all day his shieth was a bit swollen. When I got home today one of the girls said he was not having a good day... Rolling Eyes Sad No Question coffee

His sheith is really swollen, he has a lump about the size of the palm of your hand in front of the belly button, and his fet locks are really swollen too.. He is sunken in at the tail head (started today) and seems the weight is coming off his back. He is eating, all vitals normal. drinking, peeing, pooping and just does not act like he feels well. Shocked

The vet told me to give him banimine and see what he looks like in the morning.. They thought he could go in to kidney failure after his tie up. His labs were only .2 above normal on kidney functions. I have not been able to find any articles on signs of kidney failure in a horse.. I am at my witts end.. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

I fell like I am loosing this colt. Any one with information on this would be loved by us FOREVER.. pray

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