Help please someone!

Alright, so my TB mare foaled right?

She tore a bit of course, and had issues during labour that I got the vet out for it. Now she had stepped on her placenta a bit because the knot we had on it slipped a bit, but we were standing right there to fix it, but when she finally expelled the placenta (about 10-12 hours later ), and we examined it, it had a small tear near where it attached to one of the uterine horns. My mom said it looked more like where the placenta had ripped rather than left anything behind.

After that, she was super swollen, and we have been washing her back end daily, however she is torn a bit towards her anus. Now, she is *peeing* blood, very dark, and looks sore when she does it, I have been in contact with my vet every day that this has been going on (since she foaled), yet they just think she has a small piece of retained placenta, and have us giving her bute and penicylin for 5 days, twice a day. However, I am wondering, if she is peeing it out or, if it is pooling in her some where and she is pushing it out. Everytime I see her, she atleast does this once, but have not seen her pee any other liquids.

I am trying to get my vet out, but they dont seem as concerned as I am...

When my mare began to foal, only one hoof was presented, and it looked to be sideways, and when I checked inside of her, I thought I could feel a nose, but no other leg. We got her up and walked her to slow her contractions until the vet got there. Then once laid down again, the foal was presented properly, and the vet told me she could have done it on her own.... which i dont believe she could.
Then the one vet who attended the foaling said "I didnt see any rips or tears when I was there", however it was too dark even with the light to see, and she didnt really check for it.

What do you all think about whats going on with my mare? I am extremely worried, and I dont want to loose her. The vets didnt think they needed to come out before, but I am going to DEMAND they come and check her today.

Help?

1st off pennicillin is 99% not effective against any bacteria anymore in any critters including people horses etc... you don't see it prescribed in people because it doesn't work and the AAEP says don't bother it doesn't work in horses you are wasting your money... find what works against the bug you need to be fighting do a culture and sensitivity... then your mare needs banimine for inflamation to prevent lamanitis which is a huge concern with a retained placenta for that long... those would be my first 2 concerns... then your mare needs to have her uterus flushed with antibiotics every 12 hrs x3... this needs to be done at a vet clinic. This would be my plan of care and how we have handled any retained placentas in the past.... (don't give banimine IM)

I cannot understand for the life of me why people always seem to have to beg the vet to come out!! For god's sake , it's his job!! It's not like we are asking a big favor of them, they are getting paid quite well. I'm not familiar with this situation but it sounds like you really do need some one out to look at her and what Lynn says sounds right to me. But something should be done. Vets can't be that busy, or if they are ,then they sure need to start recruiting more vet school candidates!

Lynn's right... GET HER TO THE VET ASAP TO GET HER FLUSHED! I used to not do this, but if I see something funky going on, I'll give the mare a shot of... I hope this is right, oxytocin to get her to go ahead and push that thing out of there.

She may have ripped... GAWD, her and I have been in the same boat on that...but the vet can sew her up, if need be AFTER she's rebred, if you're going to breed her back.

But yep, I'D GET HER TO THE VET PRONTO or get the vet out PRONTO - whichever.

7cedars wrote:

Lynn's right... GET HER TO THE VET ASAP TO GET HER FLUSHED! I used to not do this, but if I see something funky going on, I'll give the mare a shot of... I hope this is right, oxytocin to get her to go ahead and push that thing out of there.

She may have ripped... GAWD, her and I have been in the same boat on that...but the vet can sew her up, if need be AFTER she's rebred, if you're going to breed her back.

But yep, I'D GET HER TO THE VET PRONTO or get the vet out PRONTO - whichever.

Well I am still waiting for a call back , But I called yesterday and the one vet (there is a team of 3 field vets at my vet office, and my normal one left to go back to school!) said to put her on some drugs, and that the other vet had said she wasnt ripped when she saw her.... Oh yea, I guess we ripped her vulva for fun .

I have a sick mare, and NEED a vet, I am calling back here again soon, I already spent $286 on having the vet out to help her deliver the foal.

I had given her oxytocin to help her expell the placenta, and she did, however I think a tiny piece is still in there or something. She is having her hoo-haw washed daily, but it still doesnt look right....

Would y'all be too grossed out if I took a pic and posted it? If she wasnt peeing blood (and I mean DARK red), then i wouldnt be so worried! But she is, so I am worried there is some sort of internal bleeding going on. I asked before if I needed her flushed, and they said no, antibiotics would be sufficient. Well, this is her third day of antibiotics, and it still looks gross, dont know if she is still peeing blood (havent seen her do it yet today), but still I WANT ANSWERS from them!

I am so mad right now, this vet clinic is the most expensive one around, and while my normal vet I was very happy in paying the higher fees because of his quality of work (he was cute to boot! LOL), but this is just getting rediculous.

I am going to take a pic of her vulva to get all of your opinions, but I am also going to call the vet office and DEMAND they come and see her TODAY.

That is scary. Sorry, I can't help with any advice, but I sincerely hope everything turns out for the best. I'll keep you and the mare in my thoughts.

pics from the outside aren't really going to make much difference that will all heal what is of concern is did her cervix tear or does she have a uterus tear? Also does she have an infection.. an infection will often make their urine appear very dark almost wine colored... don't even consider breeding her until she is good and healed or you will risk sterility even if you have to leave her open a year.... also if that cervix is torn she may not be able to hold a foal to term again you really need a vet with equine repo experience sorry if it sounds harsh but doesn't sound like your group is very with it. I wouldn't want to rely on them working on my horses in a crisis. Good luck and keep us posted... get her off the bute it really isn't going to help with anything but will cause ulcers if you can get some banimine that is for soft tissue swelling and bute is more muscular/skelatal

Alright, I demanded that they come out. They are very reliable, and usually come when I need them, they just seem to not be as good of quality when it comes to their work..... maybe I am just used to my old Dr. Josh.... They are thourough (sp?) and answer all my questions, but the one who was helping me, as far as i am concerned, is an idiot. There is someone who took Josh's place, and I have used her once, then informed the office she was not to be sent to my farm again.

Anyways, the vets prognosis - She has a hematoma on the side (more to the outside of her vulva) which is making things pool there as she has to push it around it, this will heal with time. She also has a small tear into the tissues near her anus (not into her anus, but beside it) and it seems to already be infected, this too will heal, and would be the reason why she was peeing (or pushing out) blood, and she is slightly torn towards her anus on the exterior of her vulva.

Depending on how much discharge was have on her foal heat, we may or may not flush her uterus then, if there isnt enough, she said we would flush it on her second heat, and then I may possibly be able to breed her back on the third heat.

She is on penicylin for a total of about 10 days, and will have a total of 5 days for bute. Lynn- I know bute can cause ulcers, however we have not had an issue with it, and thats what we have always used.... never used benamine.... but would like to try it. It is simply to help her feel better.

She is being such a good girl about things, the 4 shots she gets a day, and the bute, and messing with her baby....... I love this mare.

Also, My vet said, if she had a torn uterus, or anything like that, she would be dead by now, or very very sick. And she isn't. So she is completely ruling that out, THANK GOD.

Here is her vulva 4 or so days after foaling, you can clearly see the hematoma, and the rip. WARNING, GRAPHIC PIC

The mare does need to be flushed with antibiotics. I had the retained plecenta once before and that is what was done with her.. You could tell she was really sick too.. Standing with her head down and not eating.. Totally and infection.. She could be flusing that dark blood out that is left behind after foaling. Normally that is not dark blood though..

Let use know what happens..

Bluejay wrote:

The mare does need to be flushed with antibiotics. I had the retained plecenta once before and that is what was done with her.. You could tell she was really sick too.. Standing with her head down and not eating.. Totally and infection.. She could be flusing that dark blood out that is left behind after foaling. Normally that is not dark blood though..

Let use know what happens..

See thats the thing, she is not sick looking at all, eating, drinking fine, letting the foal nurse the 20 times he wants to in an hour.... she only looks uncomfortable when trying to pee or push out the fluids.

These are just our recommendations do what you will.... I however would be really concerned about the mare and her possibly coming down with laminitis not something to fool around with neither are infections. You asked our opinions and you got them . I don't like to wait and see. Usually bad things happen with horses when you do that but that is my opinion and my experience.

Lynn M. wrote:

These are just our recommendations do what you will.... I however would be really concerned about the mare and her possibly coming down with laminitis not something to fool around with neither are infections. You asked our opinions and you got them . I don't like to wait and see. Usually bad things happen with horses when you do that but that is my opinion and my experience.

I think originally the vet thought she retained a bit of the placenta, but now she says its the hematoma on the left hand side, and a tear into the tissues by her anus, rather than the retained bit of placenta. She examined her, but I am still a bit concerned. From examining her she didnt say anything other than that. 7 more days on top of the 3 we had done of penicilyn, washing the exterior, and then flushing on foal heat or the second heat.

Is that normal to do?

and yes Lynn, I asked for everyones opinion, and am glad I got it. Thank you for all of your help.

Sounds like a plan.. If she is not sick or off feed she likely does not have an infection. One thing you can do after they foal is give them 1.5cc Oxytosen and that will cause mild contractions to push that stuff out.. Most my friend use this. I have not though..

Bluejay wrote:

Sounds like a plan.. If she is not sick or off feed she likely does not have an infection. One thing you can do after they foal is give them 1.5cc Oxytosen and that will cause mild contractions to push that stuff out.. Most my friend use this. I have not though..

Well I know, when you have to pull a foal out, you usually have issues with a retained placenta, thats what my vet has told me, and thats what we have experienced. This is because you are pulling the foal faster than the mare would expell it, and when she does it on her own, the placenta naturally detaches from the uterine wall.... Correct?

And while the vet had given me 2 doses of oxytocin, she told me to call her before I used them..... So I waited, and gave her one in the am, and she expelled it shortly after.

I now have 4 oxytocin shots, ready to give to my last mare who is going to foal.... when she does, I am going to give her a shot when she shows no sign of attempting to expel the after birth.... Like my vet said to do with the oxytocin, give another earliest an hour after they get one, and they must be showing no signs of contracting...

So hmm.... Maybe your idea is a good one bluejay, I think I will try it and see how it works for us! thank you!

Most my friends who are breeders use it.. They do not even fool around with it.. I have helped most of my mares foal and not had trouble with retained placenta.. We only apply pressure when the mare is contracting.. And, only if it appears there is a problem.. Some of my girls just want you there for moral support...

The big appy is the only one that this ever happend to.. She retained the whole thing.. The last time she foaled was the last time I bred her.. Her foals were so big when I helped them to their feet their backs were already up to my chest.. That mare had two really tall ones at birth.. Too big I say

Using a small does of the Oxytosen certainly will not hurt them and may be what you need to plan on if you had this problem in the past.. It can sure save you money in the long run when you have to get the vet out for this problem.. Remeber you only need enough to make mild contractions such as 1.5cc.. Otherwise you through them back into painful labor.. And, you do not want to do that..

We now keep oxytocin here just in case. The proper dosing is 1cc. If the placenta has not expelled within an hour, increase the dose by 1cc each consecutive hour. By 4 or 5 hours, the vet needs to come back. I have an excellent horse vet I was able to get this info from. Unfortunatly, he's not terribly close to our place. The close vets sound alot like yours. Didn't want to come out when Brennen's yearling torn the inside of his hind leg and had to be helped up. The other guy even phoned me from home to see how Seth was doing. Never gonna use anybody but him from now on. Good vets are hard to come by. Is yours coming back when he finishes going back to school?

Bluejay wrote:

Most my friends who are breeders use it.. They do not even fool around with it.. I have helped most of my mares foal and not had trouble with retained placenta.. We only apply pressure when the mare is contracting.. And, only if it appears there is a problem.. Some of my girls just want you there for moral support...

The big appy is the only one that this ever happend to.. She retained the whole thing.. The last time she foaled was the last time I bred her.. Her foals were so big when I helped them to their feet their backs were already up to my chest.. That mare had two really tall ones at birth.. Too big I say

Using a small does of the Oxytosen certainly will not hurt them and may be what you need to plan on if you had this problem in the past.. It can sure save you money in the long run when you have to get the vet out for this problem.. Remeber you only need enough to make mild contractions such as 1.5cc.. Otherwise you through them back into painful labor.. And, you do not want to do that..

Well only the two we helped had issues passing the after birth...one was a maiden, so I am sure she was a bit too nervous as well. The oxytocin I have was given to me by the vet in doses, for my tb mare, I was given 2 cc, for my next mare I was given 1 cc.

reiningfan- I am hopeful that he does come back, he was so awesome.... made the high prices worth while.

I think I am going to use another vet for everyday stuff, like ultrasounds, castration etc, as this other vet works at the barn I work at, and she is fair priced, and awesome!

One thing is for sure if you ask three vets the same question you will get three different answers.. Anywhere from 1cc to 2cc is good.. All you want to do is start a mild contraction to get that stuff out of there..

We also use it when we AI.. About 4 hours after AI we use 1.5 cc. If you use more then 2cc you will be causing the same action and labor and that is not what you want to do..

This is a huge problem with vets.. They all have their own idea of what to do.. I have vets that say use 2.5cc of HCG IM and one that says 3.3 HCG IV.. Good grief.. You learn what is right and wrong, find a vet you trust and that is consitent and working for you and stick with that..

I think networking with people who live in the real world is my best resourse personally.. I ask the vets then talk to the people who are doing this stuff and go from there..