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 WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW

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Bluejay



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 22nd 2009, 9:57 pm

Ok, so call it what you want to. But, not a pinto.. Sorry, that one is taken. And, if you have hintz 57 you want to call registered then go for it.. Start a new registry called GRADE.. coffee Might make a ton of money.. cheering

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Ragdoll



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 22nd 2009, 10:46 pm

Ummmm...BJ....There already IS a grade horse registry!!!!! I checked on the internet yesterday...and there it was. There was nothing on the site, except a notice that registration of horses had been suspended because of an illness in the family.
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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 1:35 pm

Ragdoll wrote:
Ummmm...BJ....There already IS a grade horse registry!!!!! I checked on the internet yesterday...and there it was. There was nothing on the site, except a notice that registration of horses had been suspended because of an illness in the family.

They started that registry not for lineage tracking or breeding, but for you to be able to have better proof of ownership and microchipping for your grade horses. Pretty smart, may just help keep some grade's off the meat truck.

and as for PtHA Quote from another forum

Quote :
A friend of mine bred her grade mare to a registered paint stallion last year and the resulting foal is a colt. When they sent in the paperwork on him PtHA called them and told them they will not release the papers until he has been gelded since the mare is a grade. That is so awesome in my book. That has got to cut down at least a little on the people strictly breeding for "color." It may be a small thing, and many people may view them as a "fake" registry, but I still say kudos to them.
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Bluejay



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 2:08 pm

lol! Any thing to make a buck.

If you read the history on APHA, they came to be because a QH can and does produce white. AQHA had a white limit that was acceptable. APHA came together based on the over the white limit on a QH. study

Of course there are TB cross to QH in APHA. Since they came to be from over the limit white Qh. And, TB is an acceptable cross to QH.. You cannot cross TB to TB and register them with either AQHA or APHA. They would be TB registered.. If they had white color pattern they would be a pinto just as any other horse that has white color pattern. Rolling Eyes

APHA and Pinto associations define the defference by who they are. In order to be APHA you must be QH (now just APHA and that has cost them millions). They do not accept the other breeds. Where Pinto can be any thing with white color pattern. Basketball

Why call it Pinto if you don't have color? That is all they are.. Would be just like paly and buckskin just registering any old thing with any old color and calling it breed stock. They would never be that stupid. No

You can make up what ever you want and call it some thing. And, people will pay you to belong to what ever it is you are doing. You still have to have some guide lines and rules. Or, there is nothing significant about it. coffee

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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 2:28 pm

Well you're right up until a certain time they were registering full crop out quarter horses (who technically carry frame, splash, or sabino overo Wink )from 2 QH parents. However, there were crop out TB's so to speak as well. They were registering FULL TB's as paints, as it is another way to market. They of course changed it now so that you must have one APHA parent to be eligible for registry.

But the founding horses (by reading More Than Color by Frank Holmes) Yes some were primarily QH blood, Some Primarily TB blood, and some, a line of their own. Even Wahoo King, had a totally unknown dam line, while his sire was a QH. And yes while I do agree they remain of stock type, they are primarily a breed that stands on their own. They DO accept TB X foals when they have a paint parent, or else I wouldnt be able to register my filly vee, or my colt tristan, or the new owner of my other TB mare could not register her filly Jade.

I just hate people marking them as "QH's with color". While the "stock type" is the same... they are not.

Sabru Indio for example had some lineage that was QH, both his dam and his paternal and maternal granddam's were unknown. They become a breed of their own if they are nice enough... Thats kinda like saying TB's are simply arabs that are bigger and run faster, just because a lot of their founding blood was arabian.
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Triple J Quarter Horses



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 3:21 pm

Im sorry guys, BUT a pinto Is suppose to be colored. Of corse this is just me. And No, I wont breed Grade, nor purchase grade. Again just me. With the horse market the way it is. Grade is out. I don't care if it has Grade papers.

Merikle Waters, How many points do you have on your boys now? Paint points that is? How many again for a ROM and Sup. I get corn-Fussed with the paint assoc. I know it's easier to get paint points.

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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 4:28 pm

Triple J Quarter Horses wrote:
Im sorry guys, BUT a pinto Is suppose to be colored. Of corse this is just me. And No, I wont breed Grade, nor purchase grade. Again just me. With the horse market the way it is. Grade is out. I don't care if it has Grade papers.

Merikle Waters, How many points do you have on your boys now? Paint points that is? How many again for a ROM and Sup. I get corn-Fussed with the paint assoc. I know it's easier to get paint points.

QH circuit is bigger of course.. bigger registry right Smile

My trainer is showing my stud, and I am primarily showing his son, who is only CPHA registered. For our senior and junior stud we will get a PAC reg of merit type thingy on them for halter and showmanship, and hopefully later a ROM in showmanship as well his riding events when they are ready. The junior stud gets kinda put to the side while we accumulate points on his poppa, but he has a 2 day show this weekend. He is also being started under saddle to be ready for shows next year, and we expect big things from him.

Right now, my senior stud has been top 2 in SMS and Halter each time out, still filing the points with PAC but with 2 shows so far (not much I know.. but we have a big show team and they must be PAC approved to make it worth our while) he has I think 7 SMS points, and 3 halter points (He was second out of 14 horses), I do believe we need 20 per division with PAC to get a recognition ROM or something.
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reiningfan



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 4:35 pm

Tobianos have been left out of the discussion. While they may carry QH blood, they aren't just a QH with color. Different color genetics and all.
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Triple J Quarter Horses



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 4:36 pm

Explain this PAC thing. They are not recorded points with the Reg. Right? I have just now heard of this. Of corse having quarters it has nothing to do with me, but heck, a friend of mine shows a paint, and I was asking for her.

Yep, only overos are Quarters.

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reiningfan



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 4:43 pm

Basically PAC is a way to record show accomplishments in shows other than APHA. Where we are, there aren't a lot of APHA shows. This way Paints can be show and still get some of the recognition they deserve for doing well.
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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 6:55 pm

reiningfan wrote:
Basically PAC is a way to record show accomplishments in shows other than APHA. Where we are, there aren't a lot of APHA shows. This way Paints can be show and still get some of the recognition they deserve for doing well.

That pretty much sums it up Laughing

But IMO TJ, Overo's aren't quarter horses either, unless they are fully QH X QH matings.

But there is a program like PAC for Appies I hear... why not for AQHA horses? This way if my paint is strictly a dressage horse, or say an eventer or endurance racer etc, I can get recognition through PAC (paint alternative competition. Very Happy
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Ragdoll



Number of posts : 385
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Location : Nevada
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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 7:27 pm

I don't know about the other states...But the NQHA has a progam for earning points/awards for showing in open shows....

Actually, if you look at the old pictures of the AQHA founding sires, you'll see that a good many of them were colored....Old Fred in particular.
Some had a lot of color, some not so much.

I've always looked at it like this....A QH is a TB that was originally bred to run 1/4 of a mile...Hence the name....Quarter Horse. A Paint is a QH horse with white body(or tall leg) markings. It's still a QH....But whether or not it was registered as a QH depends on the latest whim of the AQHA. If a registered QH is bred to a registered QH, the resulting baby is (in my mind) a QH, regardless of what color it is. Example: If I breed my new ragdoll cat, Zoey, to a registered ragdoll, the babies are still ragdolls, even if one/more is mismarked. There is no question that the AQHA was losing 1000s of horses every year due to their excessive white rules. Dumb. Real dumb. Personally, I think the AQHA should allow registry to any Paint that can be proven to be straight QH ancestory.
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reiningfan



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 7:29 pm

The APHA may have started as a way to register QH's with too much white, but imo, it has become so very much more than that. Sure, you still get QH & Tb blood added, but they have a much larger blood pool now. I'm not a paint person, Missy is our one and only spotted body, but I really like the way the Paint & Pinto associations recognize horses show in non breed shows. I don't know about the open shows in any one else's area, but around here they are chock full of breed show people. Doing well at them in an accomplishment. It's nice to see that recognized.
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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 7:54 pm

reiningfan wrote:
The APHA may have started as a way to register QH's with too much white, but imo, it has become so very much more than that. Sure, you still get QH & Tb blood added, but they have a much larger blood pool now. I'm not a paint person, Missy is our one and only spotted body, but I really like the way the Paint & Pinto associations recognize horses show in non breed shows. I don't know about the open shows in any one else's area, but around here they are chock full of breed show people. Doing well at them in an accomplishment. It's nice to see that recognized.

I agree Smile

And Missy is freakin adorable too!
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Bluejay



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 23rd 2009, 8:24 pm

APHA has not changed. The only thing different is there has to be one paint parent. Yes the gene pool is bigger. But, that's because there are more horses in it. And, since they stopped taking the crop outs the gene pool is shrinking. With having to have one parent already regisitered they have dropped the pool down to half of what is was.

Toby, overo, tovero and all the other markings paint has it's still a paint and requires the same rules.. Paint is not defined by markings. It's defined by a QH/TB cross.. Coat paterns describe how the horse is marked. And, of course now there has to be one paint registered parent to belong.

The only real atvantage of AQHA taking in the crop outs (has to be QH to QH since this is what a crop out is) will grow them and reduce the registration of BS for paint on double registered.

It was a very costly decsion made by APHA and AQHA is raking in the money..

All the other groups that you show with I am sure are paying for points to cover your cost? And, do those points increase the value of your horse as far as their breed?

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reiningfan



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 12:33 am

"All the other groups that you show with I am sure are paying for points to cover your cost?"

Not sure I totally understand what you mean. To enter these programs, you generally need to pay. You don't get a payout for points, but you do get to win some open show money, which is great.
And yes, in my area it does increase the value, because it is well known that there are little to no venues for horses such as Paints to show in my province, other than open shows.
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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 12:34 pm

Bluejay wrote:
APHA has not changed. The only thing different is there has to be one paint parent. Yes the gene pool is bigger. But, that's because there are more horses in it. And, since they stopped taking the crop outs the gene pool is shrinking. With having to have one parent already regisitered they have dropped the pool down to half of what is was.

Toby, overo, tovero and all the other markings paint has it's still a paint and requires the same rules.. Paint is not defined by markings. It's defined by a QH/TB cross.. Coat paterns describe how the horse is marked. And, of course now there has to be one paint registered parent to belong.

The only real atvantage of AQHA taking in the crop outs (has to be QH to QH since this is what a crop out is) will grow them and reduce the registration of BS for paint on double registered.

It was a very costly decsion made by APHA and AQHA is raking in the money..

All the other groups that you show with I am sure are paying for points to cover your cost? And, do those points increase the value of your horse as far as their breed?

I don't agree, but thats ok.

As reining fan said, no we do not get payouts, but my outside mare intake has already increased, and show money helps too.

Also, enjoyment I think is the utmost of both of our concerns, for my family and show helpers, and Denise and her kids alike. Money is not #1. We show because we are out having fun. For me, the recognition we get for home work well done, I think is well earned. Glad they have a program to reward our hard work.

There is few APHA shows here, but I am better off on North Country Circuit, I win money, PAC points, and the competition is harder than most Canadian AQHA shows. We do what we can, and thats our perogitive I guess Very Happy
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reiningfan



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 1:02 pm

I gotta agree. If showing ever gets to the point where I'm not enjoying it and not having any fun, I'll quit. What I don't find fun is driving for 4 1/2 hours to get to an AQHA show where they hardly have enough entries to get any points. So we show open shows. Less expensive for entries, stalls, gas to get there, etc. Plus there is payback and a good bunch of people for the most part. There are also some NRHA shows I'd have liked to have gotten to, but they always seem to coincide with other stuff we have to be at or do.
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Bucks&Blues



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 7:05 pm

I didnt mean to start a forum mess when I asked about the BS in shows. I think my question wasnt typed right. What I meant to ask is why is it a BS will go grand over the more colorful ones? It almost never fails. It just seems like the APHA judges arent really into the colored paints, they lean more to the BS. I have noticed this in a few shows. Im going to paint world for the first time and want to see how the halter class goes.
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Merikle Waters



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 8:12 pm

Bucks&Blues wrote:
I didnt mean to start a forum mess when I asked about the BS in shows. I think my question wasnt typed right. What I meant to ask is why is it a BS will go grand over the more colorful ones? It almost never fails. It just seems like the APHA judges arent really into the colored paints, they lean more to the BS. I have noticed this in a few shows. Im going to paint world for the first time and want to see how the halter class goes.

For APHA horses, technically breed standard is the horse is to be 50-50 white to color ratio. Thats why for color classes, few have beaten Tristan. However not all these judges will be *just* pinto show judges, who knows, maybe a ton of them love QH's! But generally it seems most people like the minimals. I don't mind them myself, but my stud disagree's and either gives me 50-50, or 20 color, 80 white LOL. He's only ever had one *true* tobiano, and of course, I dont own her!
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Ragdoll



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 9:24 pm

When did the APHA start letting BS show in the same halter classes with the colored?
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Bluejay



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 9:54 pm

What ever you do to have fun is great.. If I am going to pay out as much as it cost to show in a REAL breed show I want to get some thing back for it.. At some point when you have thousands of dollars invested in your program there needs to be a return. Other then a pat of the back saying WOW... And, if your great call to fame is a grade/rescue horse sell for little money then so be it. It takes all types and some do well with nothing invested other then a few moments of sweat and tears..Wink

I have way too much invested in my ranch and horses to settle. I have been to open show to school a horse and had a ball. I have been to breed shows and had a blast... I am willing to bet that you do not pay out 200.00 for a weekend show in a weekend open show study

I am not putting you down. So, get yur panties out of a wad.. Pinto is a color registry and nothing else... cheers

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Ragdoll



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 24th 2009, 11:49 pm

That was one of my first thoughts....$$$$$$. I can't show simply because of the logistics....$$$$ and miles. For me to show at the closest AQHA show would mean about a 2 hour drive on a desolate desert highway. Between fuel, entry fees, motel room, and meals....I'd be looking at about $700. It's the same distance to the closest open show..... I work at WM, and I can tell you....WM doesn't pay all that much.

So.....I had to wonder what would inspire anyone to drive/haul from any given point in the country, to show at a pinto show....and take a chance on winning a coupon.....and maybe a ribbon. Will any of the horse magazines be doing a big story about the show/winners? I wouldn't have know about the show at all if I hadn't checked horseshowwebcast. I'm sure most people don't know that there IS a pinto world show, for that matter.
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Bucks&Blues



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 25th 2009, 12:22 am

Ummm Im not sure that made a whole lot of sense to me. It just makes me curious that a solid paint with hardly a splash of white will usually win a halter class over a true paint patterned horse that is built just as nice. It almost doesnt make it worth actually showing a patterned paint in a halter class.

Does anyone know if in the past few years a non BS horse won world or reserve? (Halter)
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Bluejay



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PostSubject: Re: WATCHING THE PINTO WORLD SHOW   June 25th 2009, 11:43 am

lol! It's true that a BS will win a class many times over. Since the paint horse did not always color they came up with a different set of papers for them. This is why you read "regular papers" on a horse so often. Laughing

Whoops, not all colored horses produce color.. No In fact, paint breeders who breed for the show horse are crossing them to QH to get very min white on them. The ones with too much white are not competative. When you talk to paint breeders they will tell you that horse has too much white, the overo is prefered with min white on it.. study I personally like the toby..Smile

The appy's and paints have been breeding the color out of their lines for a long time. Appy decided it was a problem and now requires a little more markings to get the papers.. cheers

None of it makes sense to me. I like the white and the spots. That is what they are supposed to look like. It's really about setting trends just like what we wear in the show pen. So and so did this so every one else does it too.. The horses with less white were winning so now we got to get the white out.. Rolling Eyes Good Grief, can't people just be them selves? Sleep

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